One of the core parts of many Western occult traditions is making them amenable/accessible to people with a WEIRD mindset - Crowley claimed he was simply applying the scientific method to spirituality, running himself through trials to see what produced results. Austin Osman Spare's weird sigil magic stuff (and Chaos Magic, its descendent) are swaddled in postmodern and psychological jargon about the permeable and unstable nature of reality and perception. All the branding puts these things in a different bucket than "religion" since they tend to be results/outcome oriented, whereas religion is perceived to be an ongoing set of practices and commitments.
I am called Chaos Mage. I didn't know that label/term until a spiritual brother introduced me to it. The following are my opinions based upon experience. I'm open to any civil challenge to them.
I have learned that "sleepwalking" is a mild -- polite, even -- description, and I include many faith traditions in that critique, including many of my Pagan siblings in faith. The use of entheogens is very common where those substances are found in Nature. In every culture that I've studied or about which I've read, no one uses them without a guide, an anchor point to which they can flee if they need to do so.
Crowley was a piece of work. He is revered by modern chapters of the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis). Those OTO members of my acquaintance will readily admit Crowley's flaws and unsavory aspects.
Chaos Magic (at least as a practice) is ancient. Spare brought a modern "structure" to it (you will note the inherent pun in that), Chaos has always been the realm of the shaman -- the spiritual guide and servant to their community. Early European contacts with shamans only saw their hostility. They didn't see their recognition of the danger the Europeans brought, and were acting to defend and protect their communities.
The modern "incarnations" of these things are, well, dangerous (emphatically agreeing with Rod here) because they are approached superficially, and too often without a guide. Astrology, Tarot, other forms of divination are ground-level practices which many take seriously from a point of balance. They are not a matter of belief. They are a matter of exploration and discovery. The first point of horoscopes in newspapers was to acquire and keep subscribers.
The primary danger (putting this last to see how many avoid tl;dr :D) is the ego. Lucifer's (Satan's if one prefers) effective deceptions start with capturing one's ego, then manipulating it. Jesus Christ's rejection of Lucifer's temptations showed that He had his ego in strong check. That's my "analysis" of such things, couched in Rod's original context here. The first skill a shaman or chaos mage must use is ego disengagement. Too many think of this as ego loss, and I assure one and all that my ego remains intact before and after I employ that skill... well, some might dispute that, but that's okay. 😉
Franklin, I always enjoy reading your posts on here since I don't know if I actually know anyone who openly identifies as a pagan. It's always interesting to hear from someone whose beliefs are not so common where I live.
Thank you very much, Joshua. There's an international organization called Pagan Pride Day Project. It's mandate to local use of it, usually around September: free and open to the public with the intent to gently introduce people to modern Paganism; must include a local charity (food bank, libraries, etc.); must abide by local ordinances for public events; may include vendors and entertainment.
I've been the local coordinator for this event. The primary mandate -- to show our honest and accurate "faces" to the public, became a personal ethical stance. Rod, in his compassion and generosity, befriended me and taught me that Christianity is not our enemy, and that many Christians understand this as well. I should note and emphasize that despite a deserved reputation for some few cults, modern Pagans do not proselytize. In fact, they accept newcomers who want to learn, and are very explicit about what they will learn.
A search on "Pagan Pride Day near me" will show you if there's an event that is accessible to you.
With reference to the "unstable nature of reality", I think that idealism, or anti-realism is probably the most damaging thing to have come out of what is broadly termed the Enlightenment. The conceptualization of consciousness put forth by Hume has become the default way that people think about how we know what is, but it is deeply flawed. The result is the asinine conviction that we can never really know the so-called "really real."
Idealism has its roots in Plato (and probably in ancient mystery cults before him), but I agree that the Enlightenment era took it too far. Still, even in traditional Eastern Christian thought we are advised that God's Essence is unknowable; only his Energies (more or less, his actions in Time) can be known.
In Luther's Small Catechism, the explanation of the Second Commandment (You shall not misuse the Lord your God) says that "we should fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, use satanic arts..." An earlier translation says simply "witchcraft." I would include psychedelics and all occult practices under this prohibition. God gives us the law because He loves us and seeks to protect us.
Correction on the Second Commandment: "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God." Note: Luther numbers the commandments differently than most protestants do today. Rod: you can look this up in the catechism that Bryan Wolfmueller gave you that time in Houston!
So, if I understand this correctly, the occult is real and powerful, but only if you believe in the occult. So how powerful can it really be if you can wall it off and keep it out by a simple act of will? I suppose this phenomena finds fertile and prepared ground among those preconditioned to believe in conspiracies and trained to see competence when their lying eyes tell them otherwise.
Not correct. The "occult" is every bit as real as physical reality. But the entities who do not have your best interests at heart absolutely love those who hold such naivete. LIke the quote of the best trick the Devil ever pulled was thinking he does not exist.
The 2nd best, of course, is convincing others that he does exist, but he is the good guy.
I go by Scripture. And there is nothing in there about unbelief making you immune to spiritual threat. But you want to be the fool and whistle in the graveyard, up to you.
That's not true, though. Not at all. What *is* true is that if you open yourself up to it, you invite it into your life. But it can enter your life under some circumstances even if you don't want it to. In "Living In Wonder," the stories of Tammy Comer, and my NYC friend "Emma," testify to this.
We can always say No to the Darkness-- if we understand that is what is seeking to mislead us. Unfortunately Satan can wear a fair face and deceive us with pretty lies.
No, you have not understood it correctly at all. People who don't believe in the occult can easily be targeted both by demons and people who use the occult.
Again, as I understand it, the occult refers to the supernatural, or that which can't be seen or measured by the rational senses. So how does this apply to belief in God? Just so. Like Paul, I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Does this necessarily mean I believe in the hosts of demons and devils others see as manifest in their lives? No. I don't. I don't want to. I don't need to. And I'm not bothered by it.
Rod and I agree about much. This is not one of those things.
Okay so your previous comment was poorly worded when you said "So, if I understand this correctly, the occult is real and powerful, but only if you believe in the occult."
I've discussed this with with Rod before and I think I'm pretty sure he'd agree that our understand would be demons are perfectly content to work with whatever tools you give them which would include nonbelief. And futher non belief is no defense against sorcery.
He can correct me if that's not his take, but that's been what I've observed.
Your perception and conclusion are valid, but I can assure you from personal experience that it is vulnerable. I don't mean it quite the same way as others do in their rebuttals to you.
"Occult" literal meaning is "hidden". There is, in my view, exactly one point on which all faith traditions agree: in the spiritual sense, the Occult is real. Few such traditions agree on other points -- definitions, anthropomorphic manifestations (demons, etc.); ascribing value judgments of good and evil -- and it has its parallel in the Pagan world: put six Pagans in a room and challenge them to define Paganism. You'll not know what the six definitions are because they'll be mired in an argument over a seventh one. That's a bit of self-deprecating humor, but it's essentially accurate.
I consulted with a Christian exorcist once. He came to me hoping I could assist him in an exorcism. I desperately wanted to help him, but he was stuck -- trapped, I thought at the time -- in a narrow Christian view. He had not (yet) engaged a mental health professional. He was genuinely committed to helping the victim, and took that advice immediately. In the end, the victim was treated for a mental illness and improved very nicely.
The line between mental illness and supernatural is a constantly moving line. In ancient times, there was no line, and everything in this context was supernatural. In our modern world, Science simply doesn't have all of the answers, and may never accomplish that.
Then there is mental health . . . . I'm not sure how this defeats my observation that the supernatural only manifests itself to those who believe in it. After all, someone suffering from a mental disease or defect constructs their own environment or mental milieu. What appears real to them might appear aberrational to others.
The examples of unbelievers confronted with demons that dispel their unbelief in demons remind me of nothing so much as the experience of evangelical Christians who came to see Jesus as the Son of God who died for their salvation. For other unbelievers who didn't experience the same salvation experience, what is shared with them by the converted remains mysterious and in no way affects their lives.
Indeed, science does make progress in the rational (as opposed to supernatural) world. Perhaps someday science will knock down the barriers between the two, in whole or in part. Until then . . . .
I am guided by two principles. I post them here to be informative, not argumentative.
From Wikipedia (echoed in other sources): In psychology, the collective unconsciousness (German: kollektives Unbewusstes) is a coined term by Carl Jung, which is the belief that the unconscious mind comprises the instincts of Jungian archetypes—innate symbols understood from birth in all humans.[1] Jung considered the collective unconscious to underpin and surround the unconscious mind, distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He believed that the concept of the collective unconscious helps to explain why similar themes occur in mythologies around the world. He argued that the collective unconscious had a profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences. The psychotherapeutic practice of analytical psychology revolves around examining the patient's relationship to the collective unconscious.
Jung's concept is echoed in another context by Joseph Campbell, the mythologist and myth analyst when he described the "Hero with a Thousand Faces". His analysis is very involved, but it (barely adequately) can be summarized as a storytelling context of Jung's concept.
Our world remains barely explored. Religions and belief systems remain the most common attempt to process the unknown until it becomes rationally knowable.
Talk about missing the point. One doesn't have to believe in "the occult", in the sense of full-blown demonology, in order to be ensnared in that world. As Rod has tirelessly pointed out, all one has to do is engage in certain occult-adjacent (and Bible-forbidden) activities such as psychedelics, tarot cards, Ouija boards, etc. to be drawn in without even realizing it. It has been pointed out that the devil's greatest trick is persuading people that he doesn't exist, but by no means does that immunize them from his influence. To the contrary, they are more vulnerable because they are defenseless.
Surely there are some things that are rank superstititions whatever their roots? I am volunteering at a local animal shelter these days. I've been doing it long enough to note that, yes, black cats tend not to be readily adopted-- even though the black cats they have are friendly and personable creatures. Things like black cat superstitions really do have no basis in fact and are spiritually risible. (Add four leaf clovers, rabbits' feet, broken mirrors, walking under ladders etc., etc to that list.)
For the record, I love black cats. But of course, i am not a witch nor use them as some kind of occult focus. They are just cats, members of my family.
Neither do witches "use" black (or any colored) cats. Cats are the ultimate predators, always borderline feral, and are capable of controlling pests and vermin up to twice their size. Cats are keenly perceptive, especially in low-light conditions. Every house with one or more cats teaches their humans a deep appreciation for them.
By the way, you likely understand very well the term "like herding cats". 😊
Very much so. As well as appreciate the very individual personalities cats possess, very distinctive, going back to the memories of the very first cat in my family, Storm. You are missed still, buddy. See you in Heaven.
The Egyptians ascribed a spiritual significance to cats. Bastet (possibly of Nubian origin) was worshiped in the manner the Egyptians used, but cats were honored for their predatory abilities as well as their companionship. The anthropological view was that cats were creatures of opportunity, and Egyptians quite easily "adopted" them.
There is a meme I occassionally post on my Facebook. It is a photo of a large-ish feline piece of Egyptian statuary, with a small fluffy kitten sitting next to it. The photo was snapped when the two appeared to be looking at each other. The dialogue:
Statue: "So, my child, do the humans still worship us as in days of old?"
Kitten: "Well, I shit in a box. Then they clean it up."
The first evidence we have of cat domestication comes from Cyprus in the early Neolithic, long before Egyptian civilization arose. The animal, which is descended from a Middle Eastern subspecies pretty much exclusively, also made it to eastern Asia by 3000BC- some centuries before even horses were brought to China.
Superstions and the occult are two different things. When I got my black cat he was the only cat at the shelter, but I would have chosen him anyway. He's very sweet, at least to people.
Black cat superstitions are not only real but can have real physical consequences for the cats. The references to a "black cat bone" in a couple of old blues songs is about a real voodoo-sort-of practice.
Are you familiar with the book "The Devil in the City of Angels" by Jesse Romero? Jesse came to speak to one of our Confirmation classes a couple of years ago. I am Catholic, in the Denver area, and we do hear about the diabolical, although often from visiting speakers. God bless you and your work.
I’m a reformed Catholic spirit communicator now spreading the warning about it all. Been working on a book about grief as a doorway to the demonic and have found that Catholics are the most insidious promoters of the occult not only through people like Theresa Caputo and others—Many will die on the hill of defense of the channeled and demonic Urantia Book, and the Chicago Archdiocesan newspaper is filed with workshops for Centering prayer, enneagrams, Labyrinth exercises and charismatic healing meetings. Worst of all is the promotion of the diabolical Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. The devil needs to find no point of entry. He is already here and very welcomed by millions.
Could you say more how centering prayer, labyrinth exercises and charismatic healing meetings are doorways to the occult? Seems to me those are doorways to knowing the Lord but I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts.
All can blur the boundaries between Christ-centered worship and methods that have New Age or occult origins. In the case of labyrinths, which historically served as symbolic pilgrimages in medieval Catholic settings, the practice has now often been repurposed to encourage a kind of mind-emptying that may unknowingly invite deceptive spirits. Likewise, the Enneagram, despite being presented as a harmless tool for personal insight, is rooted in esoteric teachings from figures like Gurdjieff and Ichazo, which can overshadow authentic Catholic means of sanctification through prayer, the sacraments, and obedience to Church authority. As for charismatic healing, although there is a legitimate form of this ministry within Catholicism, too many offshoots chase dramatic “signs and wonders” or focus on individual “healers” without proper discernment, potentially veering into counterfeit spirituality instead of relying on the grace God offers through the sacraments. I myself was involved in Centering Prayer which tells us to empty our minds so God’s will can take over our own wills. A very bad idea. Anything that requires an empty mind or seeks to be taken over by spiritual forces is to be avoided… it risks creating a vulnerable space where the demonic can slip through under the guise of spiritual enlightenment or healing. God bless!
I think you must have had a poor teacher of centering prayer. Perhaps you might read The Cloud of Unknowing, a revered instruction on contemplation (which is different from meditation) which has helped Catholics for about 700 years. And in my experience, the labyrinth is still used as a symbolic pilgrimage.
I am intimately acquainted with The Cloud of Unknowing. In my opinion both Centering Prayer and the current popular practice of the Labyrinth are poor comparisons. I’m glad to hear you seem to have a better experience of the Labyrinth. A great experience in its earlier form
I'm extremely skeptical of the charismatic movement within Catholicism. I do believe their intentions are probably good but especially now, when we no longer live in Christendom and with most Catholics being so poorly formed I think it's dangerous. Having heard charismatics speak and describe their experiences it seems like they are trying to 'summon' the Spirit somehow, but the Holy Spirit is part of the Triune God and you can't summon God. So what exactly are they summoning? The one prayer session I went to was really weird because everyone was expected to go forth and somehow receive the Holy Spirit from someone who was not even a religious. By what right do they claim that they can offer people the Holy Spirit? The whole thing was just really weird.
Also, I wholeheartedly agree that any kind of practice that encourages someone to completely empty their mind can open the door to the demonic. I am a big proponent of mindfulness but I use methods that are Catholic and always centered on God.
The Catholic Church's response to New Age phenomena is nicely summarized in a document issued by the Pontifical Council for Culture about 20 years ago: Jesus Christ, Bearer of the Water of Life. It's available as a booklet from the usual sources. Yes, Centering prayer and the Enneagram are condemned.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa was one of the first Americans trained in the Enneagram and since has been a notable debunker of that program. See his book Catholics and the New Age. In sort, it has been falsely represented as an ancient Sufi practice but was really created by a modern occultist with "help" from spirits. It's also bad psychology.
An old but sound anti-New Age book is Unmasking the New Age by Douglas Groothuis, a Protestant.
I got into writing for the Catholic press 40 years ago because I had knowledge of NeoPaganism from knowing Pagans in the science fiction community. I wrote and spoke about New Age topics, although not lately. Please leave all occultismt alone! All of it, even if religious leaders praise it! But also be wary of people who claim to be converted witches or satanists or whatever who traffic in sensationalism. (This doesn't apply to Rod's account of a man ensnared by demons which sounds authentic.) I've studied the history of many occult practices and have quite a research library on same but I didn't do any of them, I assure you.
Ursula, did your family live in Indianapolis t one time? If so, I knew them.
The Enneagram also uses a very old trick of con-men: it includes a bunch of laudable descriptions that people like to claim for themselves so it invites belief without serious consideration. (I had some contact with the Enneagram through a therapist I consulted for depression. I found it to be pretty dubious stuff).
This is inaccurate. Actually, when most people discern their type, they are not so happy with the description. I don’t know many who like to admit that they struggle with fear, gluttony, envy, deceit, etc.
I don't recall any such negative descriptions. There were notes about "problem" behaviors, but these were presented as excesses of the positive traits.
Our Episcopal church invited a speaker who was a big advocate of the enneagram, and many of the Episcopal churches in my area have labyrinths. Are these occult or occult-adjacent? I don't really know anything about them.
No, the Enneagram is not occult-adjacent. The prior poster is likely referring to concerns which have been raised regarding one of its founders Claudio Naranjo’s “automatic writings.” This phrase has been interpreted by some to mean that he was receiving instruction from some satanic or demonic being. What is more likely, according to those who studied under him is that he was writing in a stream of consciousness style or “letting all of his thoughts flow.”
There have been many pieces written to address these concerns. Beth McCord comes to mind. She is a an Enneagram teacher who specializes in helping others apply this framework to their Christian walk.
The following is a rebuttal from Christian author Chuck Degroat to a Gospel Coalition article warning about the Enneagram. You can find TGC article linked also.
I'm not sure that labyrinth are demonic; they may just be inane. There is a certain kind of person that is attracted to them, and they tend to be a few pickles short of a barrel.
It’s insane but Catholics began modern spirit communication practices and had the support of the Vatican. If you Google “the pope’s ghost hunters” you’ll see
I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying you used to be a catholic spirit communicator? And now you are reformed? Or you are a reformed Catholic who is a spirit communicator?
Edit to say that based on your other comments I’m assuming you used to be a spirit communicator.
I still have my subscription for a few days, which I have decided not to renew largely because of Rod's association with Thiel (and Musk and Jordan Peterson, but Thiel is the most extreme; there's the Israel issue too).
Giving Rod the benefit of the doubt -- that he is not deliberately in league with Satan -- he really is playing with fire associating with the likes of Thiel, who stands for exactly the sorts of things that Rod has repeatedly warned us about.
I am with Jon. Rombald, you should not leave. You have a fine mind and you express yourself well. It would be a loss for the site if you turned it off.
Although I'm not involved in the tech subculture in any way, shape, or form, living in the Bay Area I've met many Silicon Valley types over the years and can say without hesitation: no one on the Spectrum (TM) should ever be handed the reigns of power. Every time Musk opens his mouth, I'm reminded of this maxim.
In any case, I hope you stick around Rombald. We need more to remind us that transhumanism is not compatible with Christianity and that criticizing Israeli excesses in Gaza is not antisemitism, among other things.
There is even this weird stuff going on with Agriculture where you grow according to things in the sky. I forgot what it is called and is very common with wine.
It's called biodynamic agriculture, and was introduced by Rudolph Steiner, based on his work. I got interested in it and even went to a biodynamic ag conference a number of years ago. It is indeed occult. Steiner had all kind of wild ideas. He wrote a book on agriculture.
Apparently it can be quite effective, though: I know a guy who has long run his farm on such principles, sounds like to great success. I think it simply isn't occult if you aren't communicating with unclean spirits. To look at the sky and draw inferences, even weird or unusual inferences—not occult, no more than trying to tell the future by looking for a rain cloud.
Yes, it is effective. It works. And point taken about maybe it's not "occult" if you're not intentionally communicating with unclean spirits. I doubt most of the biodynamic farmers I met were actively trying to seance in with the spirits.
There are some practices that look weird from the outside, like putting manure inside a cow horn, and burying it on the farm. You have to mix the manure in a very specific manner, and stir it together under the moonlight at a specific time in the lunar cycle. Planting calendars aligned with the astrological positions of different celestial objects... but then, that might be similar to the farmer's almanac.
Steiner had a lot of very detailed ideas about carbon, sulfur, and various other elements and how they aligned with the different planets. These ideas form the foundation of those biodynamic practices.
Well, if it does work, then the practices meet the criterion for scientific truth, right? You conduct the experiment, and you achieve the intended result. It makes me think of the old-school term "natural philosophy," from back when science wasn't so materialistically walled off from philosophical and spiritual speculation. (And of course, such speculation flowered within Catholic Christendom.)
Yes indeed, and Steiner asserted that he was doing science. He wanted to bring the scientific method to spiritual matters, and approach spirituality as science, calling it "spiritual science". I really find him a fascinating character. Maybe many years hence, when I'm a more seasoned Orthodox christian, I'll read some of his stuff again. As of now, I feel like it's too risky that I get sucked back into the new age rabbit hole.
That is very weird. Grind that horn up and make the calcium available faster or maybe you are going for slow release. The rest is just new age stupidity.
Now that I think of it, I do remember there being some sessions at the Biodynamic Ag conference about "communicating with the nature spirits" though.... I think they called them "elementals" or something similar. That doesn't necessarily mean that every biodynamic farmer tries to do that.
I dunno: is it just a right-brained way of regarding all things as alive and enchanted and filled with spirits?—a sort of universal animism, which I think is also not what’s condemned under the heading of “divination.” Indeed, the real crime is in seeing all things as nothing but dead matter.
Here you are I are in agreement. One ought not fall into the error of worshiping the Creation, but that does not mean that the Creation is naught but dead matter in random motion. It's a gross error to "exile" Spirit from this world and into a special "supernatural" world beyond. "God is in all places and fills all things".
Sounds an awful lot like "planting by the signs," an age-old practice since long before Steiner, I think. Both of my grandfathers and all the neighboring farmers used this.
The Farmers Almanac does reference astrological signs - as, I think, a kind of calendar - but I never heard any farmers talk about astrological signs, but rather signs of nature. Nothing remotely religious about it, in my experience.
Well, the intrinsic spiritual aspect of farming would have to do with sensing how Nature has a rhythm, and how you have to align your own activities with that rhythm. The Catholic calendar is strongly connected to the agricultural cycle of the year.
Well, I think the evil in Astrology comes from running your life in accordance with what some fortune teller might advise, trying to tell the future, etc. I do think in many ways we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The problem is, we are all flawed and gullible and there's that. There are Christians who believe that the original signs of the zodiac were created to tell the Gospel to ancient people. I think that could be true. God has His own relationship with His creation and who are we to dictate what He can do? That said, I have to be really careful to discern what I think may be true vs what I know to be true- that Jesus died for our sins and will return again one day for His bride. I avoid speaking of these type ideas with non Christians, because without humility and a grain of salt, they could be led the wrong way.
Definitely. Likewise, I think the Tarot is harmless if approached in the right spirit—but that doesn’t mean I feel exactly at ease if I run into a lesbian witch with a deck of cards. Then again, I probably wouldn’t be at ease with a lesbian witch holding much of anything: “Um, so what do you intend to do with that object? . . .”
Just a friendly esoteric reminder, as usual: "divination" in the biblical sense refers to the practice of attempting to contact unclean spirits. And simple contemplation—either of cards or the stars—does not qualify as divination in this sense. The Magi were astrologers, so how do we square that circle? Some things are used for divination by some people, but that doesn't mean such use is intrinsic to what those things are. (The ouija board, on the other hand, has no other purpose than to contact unclean spirits, and that's why it's evil.)
Also, a lot of New Agey stuff—crystals, yoga—would seem to pertain to the psychical realm rather than the spiritual realm proper. There is probably a "natural philosophy" of things such as subtle energies flowing through the body (think chakras and chi), which doesn't have anything to do with spirits per se; it's just the libidinal-emotional architecture that corresponds to the architecture of the flesh at the gross level. But wantonly playing with such things could probably cause psychical damage, which *then* opens pathways to unclean spirits.
Sethu, I often find your posts interesting--this one as well.
One the subject of the occult, I am very thankful for our Anglican priest at our church in Virginia. One Sunday, some years ago, he included an admonition against astrology--even reading such columns in the newspaper or online--in his sermon.
God spoke to me that day as I had read them for amusement, but Fr. Jeff's warning showed me that I should totally eschew such readings.
This is a simple but effective part of a priest's responsibility, imho, to "care for his flock".
Cool if that worked for you. My point would just be that astrology as a symbolic and structural language for reading God’s dial is fine, but astrology as a means to contact unclean spirits is not. If that distinction is too subtle for any given person to grasp, then yeah, they should forget the whole thing. But the real distinction does exist.
Also, people just *say* a lot of things. There were priests saying *Harry Potter*—a Christian allegory written by a Christian—is occult because it involves “magic.” A lot of the fear here strikes me as being at about that level of basic misunderstanding.
The flip side is that at some level, anything even somewhat challenging could be a stumbling block to anyone, so I don't favor reading St. Paul as endorsing a race to the bottom, or a reduction of all talents to the lowest common denominator.
If an author worried about no one out there misunderstanding his book, then he would never be able to write the thing.
I just mean that we should be considerate and not be a stumbling block to others if it can be helped, but we're also called to be truthful, especially with creative and intellectual endeavors. Has someone out there been misled by JK Rowling's use of magic in her books? Sure, probably. But that doesn't mean she should have therefore not included magic in her books.
So, in the case of astrology, can it mislead people? Sure, of course it can. But I don't think we should therefore exaggerate the threat, or not be truthful about the dangers vs. the innocuous aspects as we understand it. I've thought about the "stumbling block" line before, and I worry about it being taken in a way that condemns in advance any such intellectual complexity, on the grounds that it *could* mislead people.
The difference is, Harry Potter is myth. Fantasy. Though occultists and fantasists use similar language sometimes, they are not remotely the same thing. And unfortunately, some fantasy fans, with their penchant for the strange, other personality traits, and out of some ignorance, cross over from fantasy into dabbling with this stuff, thinking they can become "real" wizards. Which will take them down a bad road.
Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons, myths, fairy tales, wonderful stuff, nothing wrong with it. But it is just fantasy. If some schmuck comes telling you how YOU TOO can be a wizard, run.
And tell the well-meaning, though ignorant priests/preachers to chill out. Authors, including Christian ones, are strongly aware of how tales of myth, legend, mystery and heroism can help fortify good character in a person. If read with the right frame of mind.
A young man at our parish is (Lord willing) about to head off to seminary to become a priest. He grew up in the occult and knows the perils well. He's quite frank that he was practicing sorcery and communing with quite active spirits. Please pray for him and his family. I think he's going to be a great priest.
So, Rod worked with LSD and came to Jesus. His friend, Shawn Ryan? Healed. Rod hears stories about the faithful and pious working with these medicines. Many of which (not the LSD) are naturally given by God to us. I have a similar experience, myself. Delivered from drug addiction and to the doors of Orthodoxy *partly* due to my experience with these medicines. Additionally, Rod hears -- anecdotally -- that people in Christian communities throughout the world are working with psychedelics, and finding these medicines to be potentiators to faith. Heck, the woman who re-introduced psilocybin to the West -- Maria Sabina -- was also a Christian. And she paid a price for it, too.
And despite all this he says:
"I absolutely believe [positively working with psychedelics] that is possible — because I experienced a far lesser version of the same thing. Yet I would say for the vast majority of people who are drawn to experimenting with these substances, there is no good reason to put themselves in that kind of spiritual peril."
Citation, please, Rod.
Yes, many are led down different paths. Their are reasons for this. Maybe a Jewish person doesn't come to Christ. A committed secular humanist? Same. But someone who wants to come to Christ? Someone with a God-shaped soul in her heart shaped like Christ? Working with a guide who also appreciates and valorizes Christ? Psychedelics are, in the words of Stan Grof, "non-specific amplifiers of the psyche." They are very unlikely to make a person something he or she is not.
Rod, I yet again invite you to talk to someone who knows this area in a different way. You cherry-pick the people to whom you speak about this. Obviously. For reasons I don't understand. It would be a gift to God if you considered not doing that, and I would be thrilled to help you get in touch with such people. The offer is there. Sincere. God-centered. Open. Take me up.
I think the differentiation comes from what your purpose is. Are you using recreationally and habitually? Are you using as a medicine? Certainly God put certain plants on this Earth to help heal us. I personally think that using a psychedelic as a one-time experience to help heal trauma is a much better option than a lifetime of daily anti-depressants or anti-anxiety drugs.
But if the psychedelic-drug experience turns into an addiction, then I think you open yourself up to unwanted, spiritual influence.
I think, like with any substance that causes physical or physiological changes in your body, you need to use psychedelics in a limited and always monitored environment. As in a medically monitored environment.
Trying some "good shit" that your hippie- dip friend Pussy Willow picked up down in Baja and brought to your cookout 'Cause it will, like, mellow you out and let the universe tell you her secrets and stuff is a bad idea, especially if you keep doing it. I realize, of course, that this is basically how Rod says that he did LSD and that's not a good idea or method, IMO, for anybody to fool around with these things. Rod got lucky.
The sort of thing you're describing happens. For sure! The epiphany that assisted me in becoming sober from booze and weed was midwifed by LSD, and it was not a part of any intention I set. These positive things do happen organically.
But any person familiar with these medicines as medicines knows what set and setting are. They also know -- I'll mention as an aside -- that a formally clinical/medical "setting" is a terrible one for these purposes. There are best practices. They are rather well known.
When people engage with these medicines with these best practices in a setting that aligns to their values, good things happen. Do good things happen ALL the time? Well, no. That doesn't even happen with aspirin, which definitely would NOT be an over the counter drug if introduced today. And it definitely doesn't happen with -- say -- SSRIs or ECT.
There are lots of spiritual and mental health tools at our disposal. These medicines are one of them. As is, for example, EMDR. Which strikes me as a modality Rod would definitely lump into the others he discusses in this post, except for the fact he tried it and liked it.
I understand skepticism around psychedelics. That is healthy. And negative spiritual consequences are a potential hazard. Working with these medicines is serious business requiring guidance and discernment. What I don't understand is Rod's bigotry against them.
Oh, it was not just luck. Someone (the Lord) was looking out for him. Like me and my experiments with OBEs. I had some real success with that and could have gone further, but something stopped me in my explorations. I believe the Lord ran interference for me an allowed me a spiritual time-out to contemplate what I was doing and get my act together before things got really dangerous.
Cooked Barbarian, taking psychedelics is a form of idolatry. Try taking Holy Communion, going to Confession, practicing regular prayer (vocal (meaning formulaic), meditation and contemplation). Rod had an exceptional experience. Do I think there is a use for psychedelics? Probably yes--should be closely monitored for treating things like profound depression (I'm not an expert in this area, but could entertain and do research on this topic, except it doesn't interest me that much), and PTSD, etc. All use has to be medically supervised and backed up by research.
Why? Because otherwise one is practicing idolatry. The first commandment is really foundational and a lot of people miss it. They miss it and then get addictions (drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, weird compulsions, want to be on the internet all day, want to watch sports all day). We need the real thing--otherwise, we get the "unreal" (fake) stuff. And the fake stuff does not give us the strength we need to resist the 7 deadly sins--anger, envy, pride, sloth, gluttony, lust and greed. The "real" things builds us up in the virtues and bestows the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- joy, love, peace, mildness, forebearance, long suffering, all the good stuff.
I don’t think I follow how it’s intrinsically idolatrous, given that idolatry is first and foremost a subjective *attitude*. Alcohol is an idol to an alcoholic, but not to a healthy drinker; an icon is an idol if you worship the piece of wood and not the God behind it. If a person eats a mushroom while giving thanks to God for creating it, then well, he could a lot of things, but idolatrous isn’t one of them.
More broadly, whether any given thing is an idol or a sacrament depends largely on what it *does*, functionally, to your relationship with God. And again, the one and same thing can have radically different effects on different people, depending on their approach and intent and context. Even the Eucharist can become an idol, in the most extreme case.
If God specifically tells you not to do X and you decide you know better and are going to do it, no matter what. That would be like alcohol. We are not told to abstain from alcohol, but to avoid drunkenness. But if you decided you are out to get TO' UP anyway, disregarding Scripture, well, you've stepped outside His will. And that causes problems, including spiritual ones.
If the Lord says "no," He means it. A human is not going to be able to debate it with Him.
The point would still stand, though, that the drug isn’t uniquely an *idol* as Anne argued, except in the general sense that all disobedience could be framed as idolatry.
(This is also assuming that the Bible does unequivocally condemn what we would call psychedelics, which I won’t contest for present purposes. I don’t use them, in any case.)
The best argument I have found making the theological case that psychedelics are uniquely forbidden is in this article entitled "The Psychedelic Renaissance: A Catholic Perspective." I have attempted to engage the author, but much like with Rod, to no avail:
I think the author -- Thomas Carroll, an MD at the University of Rochester -- makes some of the same misteps I have characterized here.
His objections which are relevant to this conversation hinge on a few things:
1. These medicines have the potential to change people in ways contrary to the spiritual ethos of Christian piety
2. Using these medicines with an intention for Christian spiritual growth are contrary to Christian ethics as we would be demanding something from God that He must give freely; Rod touches on this with his observation that Demons will be happy to fulfill a human request for interaction
My counter suggests acknowledgement of discerning set and setting as a part of best practices in working with these medicines. If one centers one's faith, works with a guide friendly to that faith, and adopts best practices around setting, preparation, and integration there is no more spiritual hazard for either of these things than when a person decides to go on a Christian retreat.
Idolatry is not relevant. Or, more accurately, it doesn't HAVE to be relevant. There are people who work with these medicines sacramentally. But this is not required. The hazards of gluttony and intoxication for which there are clearer Biblical parallels, similarly, are not relevant. Heck, these medicines are for many an aid to ameliorate addiction. How? Well, in my experience, because of how they can help with the first step of AA: Surrender. Which God also asks of us.
Again, don't get me wrong: Are there risks if handled inappropriately? Absolutely! But these risks pertain to all medicines, and therapeutic modalities. For a Christian, are there licit and illicit ways to do yoga? Meditate? Participate in therapy? Yes. Does that make yoga, meditation, and therapy universally illicit? No. Going down that path is the same one entertained by evangelicals who said I can't listen to rock and roll, or play Dungeons and Dragons.
By their fruits we shall know them, right? Well, these medicines have been *a part* of my path from dissolute, selfish, suicidal alcoholism and addiction within a materialist, near-nihilist personal ethos, to a man sober over 20 years dutiful to family and community with an active Christian prayer life.
At a bare minimum, then, it seems to me we must acknowledge there is a licit way to work with these medicines, and an illicit one. And the rewards of the former can be no less than life-saving. To me, and many others, an obvious blessing.
My impression is that Rod's caution is directed primarily towards those seeking to use LSD, mushrooms or ayahuasca out of curiosity rather than to seek help for a deep problem such as PTSD, addiction or severe depression.
But he also warns against working with these medicines as a spiritual aid. Even though *that is exactly how they worked for him, and he wasn't even trying to do that on purpose.*
I noticed this “soft occult” trend too. For reference, I am 33 years old and Catholic. I don’t personally know anyone who combines Catholicism with psychedelics, but I have seen Christianity combined with other new-age stuff. I haven’t seen it at my parish (though I’m not very involved outside of Sunday attendance and occasional attendance during the week).
I have a friend who is now a full-blown born-again-Christian influencer (100k followers on Instagram) and she is mixing new-age practices with Christianity. Most recently, prosperity gospel. But she is also into “manifesting.” That’s a weird one, because manifesting is typically associated with New-Age, but she mixes it in with prayer. Where does one draw the line? She often quotes Mark 11:24.
I don’t know anyone personally who does this, but I’ve seen plenty of videos on social media of young women who worship and pay homage to several goddesses, and include The Virgin Mary as one of the “goddesses.”
And then there is my cousin (also 33) who is into astrology, but has also begun praying to God. Though I think she puts more stock in astrology than God.
As for the millennial, suburban women who are into soft-occult stuff—that’s been going on since we were tweens. I remember buying popular magazines back in the day (as a 13, 14-YO), and reading about astrology and crystals and all of that junk. And now, we have “Witch-tok” (which is the witch-arm of TikTok-tok) that has become wildly popular among Gen Z and millennials. Combine that with super popular celebrities like Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande, who are very witchy, and a growing appreciation for a “witchy” aesthetics…it’s a lalapalooza effect for bored, suburban women.
Marie Claire, Cosmopolitan, Glamour…where I grew up (in the suburbs of Chicago) we didn’t have a lot to do, especially in the winter months. Often, my girlfriends and I would walk to the local Walgreens and buy magazines. They always had astrology articles that we would read, and I do recall us trying out The Ouija board on a few occasions. There was a pull towards that “edgy” supernatural realm, at least amongst my friends and I. I would say that’s probably common for many girls. It seems like fun, and if you get a response from something, it’s exciting.
I wonder who writes the material for Chinese restaurants regarding the different Years. Year of the Dog. Year of the Horse. And my own Year of the Rat.
Oh, for sure! It’s all just general statements that can pertain to any human being. I always looked at the “love” horoscopes to try and figure out if my crush and I were compatible, haha!
A fortune teller once told me, "Soon you'll be moving to California." And I went, "What?—no." And lo and behold, I never so much as had the faintest thought of ever going to California. Hey carnival lady, I want my money back.
How so? I'm mostly familiar with her Darkover novels which posit a world where assorted psychic talents (called "laran") are real, but are treated scientifically not mystically.
I would say "The Mists of Avalon" was definitely the gateway into being drawn into the Wicca type stuff. I was already fascinated with all the Arthurian legend stuff and for a very lonely teenage girl, it certainly filled a gap.
According to their daughter, Marion and her husband did terrible things. He died in a federal prison for child molesting. But terrible things were done to them when they were young that made them that way, something that goes unmentioned in exposes. They are to be pitied
That said, I would not recommend Mists of Avalon which peddles Triple Goddess paganism and is --to say the least--unhistorical. Sword at Sunset by Mary Renault, an actual Pagan, is much better.
Marion was way into occultism but considered herself Episcopalian. (Sorry if I made anyone wince.)
Same here. I was very confused and messed up as a teen, and perhaps that book was one of the contributing factors. I thank God for bringing me back to Him.
Likewise. I think God - even though I wasn't a proper Christian until a few years ago - Baptized, but, not raised in any faith at all - kept me from pursuing anything further than very surface level. Whereas, when I began my official conversion to the Catholic faith, I was almost immediately all in in a completely different way.
I don't know if that makes sense. Tired and in pain, lol.
I read "Mists" when I was 16, and I found it an interesting retelling of Arthurian myth, but just as Greek tragedy didn't draw me toward worship of the Greek gods, Mists didn't interest me in Celtic paganism.
Rachel, if I were you, I'd warn your influencer instagram friend that she is practicing a form of idolatry (i.e., she is "breaking" the first commandment). "Prosperity gospel" is idolatry--using God to get money. "Manifesting" is idolatry. Referring to Our Virgin Mother as a "goddess" would not please either Our Virgin Mother or God. And if you lose your friend, well, "weigh the cost of discipleship" and find another friend. You are likely to lose her, immediately, no matter how gentley you break this "news" to her.
Well, she already dropped me as a friend…so I suppose me still calling her a friend is one-sided, haha! Ironically enough, she thinks Catholicism is satanic.
She got twisted. Pray for her. I've lost a few friends over my support of Trump and from being a Catholic (both, and separately). So, I got new friends. How? Join some church group. Book clubs. Sports teams. Take adult ed classes.
I should pray for her more often. I know she was well-intentioned, and I miss her friendship. She seems to have gotten swept away in the glitzy world of VIP social media influencers.
I gotten taken to task a couple of nights ago because I have close friend who voted for Trump-- although that friend is not a MAGA chud and he's free with criticism of Trump. Still just being Trump voter adjacent is enough to set some people off. And any way the guy chewing me out is a certified jerk who has made it clear he can't stand me from the first time I met him. I try to avoid him, though he has battened onto an elderly retired doctor I do like. Someday the jerk may catch me in a less than cheery mood and the result will be some free entertainment for the masses.
I think of a number of people I've heard talk about these things, and it's always women, who mention astrological signs and seem to think that there is some bit of truth to them. Also I remember the enneagram fad that I saw people talking about on Facebook.
In my experience, it is a female-dominated field. There was a time where I kind of got into it (a few years ago), and when I told my husband about some of my astrological research, he looked at me like I had lost my marbles. Suffice to say, he was not into it, ha!
"If you think that having President Trump in office fighting wokeness is all we need to win the battle, well, as good as that is, you are seriously mistaken. Politics is necessary to this fight, but not remotely sufficient. This is not merely a political problem. It’s not even mostly a political problem."
And the way things are going, Trump could well be either making things worse for when the backlash comes (corruption by association), or given his newfound love for pursuing "enemies", he could well become part of the problem as he continues to overtly demand deeply un-Christian things, and Christians refuse to bow the knee. Not all oppression comes from the Left, after all, and the post-Christian right has some truly malevolent alliances moving.
Politics is a powerful gateway for temptation, the most common being rage. If you a politician inspires outrage in you, the more you write about them, the bigger the gate you give Satan.
And the Devil loves to whisper in your ear "how dare they criticize YOU, how can they not see how right YOU are, look how delusional they all are mindlessly following (insert poltician's name here). Look at that one telling you to calm down, that fool doesn't see the danger does he...but you do! Look at you, you're man with information, with connections. And they question you? How dare they?"
And the devil might also be whispering in your ear to look the other way, to keep writing off or justifying each new little nudge, each little transgression. "Oh this? It's not so bad. May even be necessary. What's one more threat to rule of law, after all the other guy did plenty too... And if we don't back our guy, they'll come ofter us, and do even worse, so we have to squeeze them first.... Rights only apply to actual citizens, not visitors. How dare anyone question our great leader? How dare they be so unpatriotic?"
Power is ever a great an dangerous temptation. The Devil tempted Christ with His (Christ's) own power: Be the worldly and kingly Messiah the Jews are expecting! History is littered with reformers who started out well intentioned but became so besotted with their need for power they ended very badly.
A commenter here has just said that the Magi were astrologers, so how do we as Christians deal with that? This is a commenter who claims to be a Christian, is still ( unless he hasn't informed us of a change in this regard ) attached to tarot cards, and who a year or two ordered me not to address him again. Maybe the grand manner will move him to read this.
The Magi may have been astrologers, but I can't think of anything in the Bible which tells us they remained astrologers after they saw Jesus. The Christmas star was a miracle which doesn't quite fit as a manifestation of The Holy Spirit, but probably was that in some way which is not explained to us in the Bible. My pastor knows that I have a special relish for things in the Bible which don't quite "fit," and this is one of the foremost.
No Christian can see the story of the Magi as less than adorable. There is also the subtle humor in God's having used the deludedness of the Magi to draw them to The Incarnate One who would eventually put an end to delusion forever.
Good point. It should not be troubling if the Magi were astrologers, rather than astronomers. The Lord frequently used flawed Christians and non-believers for his purposes.
I've thought about this. CS Lewis sometimes discussed the idea of the "wise pagan", a pagan who stayed away from dark stuff and was clearly working not towards aggrandizement of self, but truly seeking the Lord with the knowledge and tools they knew. The Wise Men of the Gospels may have been pagans, using pagan tools. But their hearts, their intent were pure. They were seeking the Messiah of the Hebrews, believed in him and what he meant for the world. So, when the time came, the Lord sent them an invitation to play a special part in his entrance into the world.
"Astrologer" is not perhaps the most felicitous translation of magus. And yes, astrology and astronomy were not entirely separate. They wouldn't be for centuries. One theory has suggested that the magi also may have been Zoroastrian priests.
The Church did not object to astrology as a set of symbols for organizing the cosmos. That's why the zodiac is a typical feature of medieval books of hours and appears in other decorative art. What one absolutely can't do is use it for predictions.
Same with alchemy. Its processes contributed to chemistry and its symbols chart spiritual progress. It's also the fundamental basis of the Harry Potter novels, something the Harry-haters missed.
A beautiful way of thinking of it! I have noticed that the commenter I alluded to seems to be a syncretist. He just loves his tarot cards! A year or two ago, I had answered a Mormon commenter, explaining that Mormon Christology is entirely corrupt and unChristian. The tarot card lover snuck up behind me and told the Mormon that he was just fine and should pay no attention to me.
That was a classless thing to do, as well as being Satanic. As I remember, I said to the tarot card lover that he could at least have given me a heads-up that he was going to do such a thing. I would have respected his doing that. He blamed me for the whole thing, and in his grand way ordered me never to address him again.
If that man is not a clinical narcissist, they don't exist.
Evidently Mr. Lime is still very sour about something, and he imagines that he's keeping his promise to not gossip about me by conspicuously avoiding my name. (He is not: this is just his usual manner of acting like a mean girl.) The reason he's forbidden from talking to me is that he's a man of vile and unstable temper, and even now he can't refrain from his obsessive slanders. I intend to block him if he continues, in which case he won't see my comments and I won't see his, ever again. That sounds pleasant.
I got sucked into the "soft occult" for a number of years in my 30s, all while I was a practicing Episcopalian. Nothing in church prepared me for its allure, or to understand that spiritual warfare was real. I was initially introduced to the new age and new thought by an executive coach I hired to help me with a career transition. There are so many flavors of this nonsense. I was into Abraham and Seth (channeled demons), Oprah, law of attraction, Rudolph Steiner, yoga, I had tarot cards ("angel cards"), a pendulum, I was doing energy healing with a naturopath. As a nature lover and (now recovering)-feminist, appeals to the "divine feminine" and a greater connection to the natural world really attracted me.
Eight years later here I am, an Orthodox christian, and I had to burn all those books.
When I was eight years old, I got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. My father always left the hall light on for my sister and me. On this particular night, Satan/the devil/Evil incarnate—whatever you want to name the Presence—was waiting for me in the hall. I collapsed on the floor, curled up, shut my eyes and said the Lord’s Prayer over and over. Until Satan left the hall. I am now 78, and I have often puzzled “why then?” I do not have an answer. Many many years later, the Lord gave me, a lackadaisical Christian at the time, a task—and of course when God tells you to do something—via a theophany, no less—you do it. So I do wonder if “the incident at age 8” was the Devil trying to forestall my hearing God call my name those many years later. A few of my Christian friends also have had satanic encounters. To my mind, the most important thing about my encounter is that I knew the Lord’s Prayer by heart. My father and my Sunday School had taught me. My understanding and experience of God was not much compared to today. Pure faith via what we might see as a kind of indoctrination now was what I had at age 8. But that was enough. And my experience shows the importance of bringing children up in the faith, even though it is rudimentary rote learning. (And I might add that I have met a few people who lived in the Living Presence of God from their earliest years. I was not one.) Luther’s “Mighty Fortress” has always been my favorite hymn, especially these verses: “But still our ancient Foe, doth seek to work us woe. His craft and power are great, and armed with cruel hate, on earth is not his equal.”
I don’t feel able to go into details in a forum such as this. However, many years when I was in my early twenties I attended a small Anglican prayer group. One evening in which we discussed the topic of the occult I found myself recalling some frightening dreams I had had as child. As I did so I reacted in a fashion which took me completely by surprise. I suddenly found myself overwhelmed by sense of dread and fear. I was shaking and tearful. Other people, including 2 Anglican clerics, could see it and attempted to pray for me in a rather panicked fashion. The experience left me bewildered, and I was unable to make sense of it. I still cannot.
If there is a lesson it is that parents should pray frequently for their children. I think childhood is a period when we are more open to the numinous and this can be good or bad. I recall Rod describing one of his own children seeing an angel – I think it was in a church setting. Sleep is also a time of vulnerability. The experience I have briefly described happened 40 years ago. Though I can say some Christians in the recent past particularly those of a charismatic disposition acknowledged the demonic they didn’t really know how to handle it. Such things are maybe more common and real than we think. They can lie hidden unless something happens to reveal them. If they do manifest themselves we often resort to materialistic or psychological explanations in order to understand. We do need the gift of proper and effective discernment and so for the power of Christ to be made known.
How can we discern the seepage of the occult into our lives or our friends' lives. What is a wise way to respond? Is the Enneagram not good? (My own instinct is to reject it. I get confused like I can't wrap my mind around it.)
I thought of the Enneagram today too. And I have some of the same questions. But in my own life it has not felt like a doorway into the occult—just the opposite, actually. Very helpful with family and work relationships. And the deeper I got into it, the more it led me back to Christ and God’s world. It’s certainly not necessary and can clutter up your mind if you think about it too much (I’ve had to back off of it so I don’t categorize everyone I meet all the time) but I don’t think it’s harmful if it’s seen as a spiritual tool. Having used the ideas myself to very beneficial effect, it strikes me as mostly another way to talk about the spiritual disciplines and grow in them for people who didn’t encounter those ideas much in church. On the other side, it’s not helpful if used as a way to stereotype yourself or others and can be very harmful if talked about that way.
Thank you so much for this thoughtful response. I do think we are given a lot of freedom. It’s the stereotyping that bothers me and how it can be a rubric that comes between people and maybe stifle the Spirit’s insight into a person. I also think it can open it up too.
Yes, exactly. One of the most insightful things I ever heard anyone say about the enneagram (on a podcast, maybe?) was that it was originally meant to be a personal spiritual process for doing work on oneself, with God and perhaps a spiritual director, not as a way to think about other people at all. This is how it was the most helpful for me—I actually encountered it about the same time as I did material about the seven deadly sins, and the enneagram ideas were helpful in a similar way. As a fad, of course, the ideas didn’t really come across that way.
That makes good sense to use it as a personal spiritual process. I bet that work on the seven deadly sins was very helpful. I read Kathleen Norris’ book Acedia and Me and was taken by her saying the seven deadlies were originally thought of as the seven bad thoughts.
I have that book on my shelf! Perhaps it’s time to read it again. Acedia is the “bad thought” I struggle with the most, and I liked that book a lot back when I first read it. If you’re interested in this topic you might like Glittering Vices by Rebecca DeYoung—I thought that book was very helpful and well-written.
No. The enneagram was invented by a Peruvian occultist who claimed the help of supernatural entities who weren't angels. Please see Fr. Mitch Pacwa's book Catholics and the New Age which I can't lay my hands on at the moment to give more details.
I respect your disagreement here and understand why you might not trust the enneagram. I have read other works, however, which describe a different provenance for the idea, so I’m not sure who is correct. Since I’ve already spent a lot of time with it, I can look at the fruits in my life, which are many and positive, healing of relationships and “bad thoughts” as Katie and I were discussing earlier in the thread. It helps you identify your fears and live in a way that doesn’t allow them to control you, so that you are able to grow spiritually past the armor you put on to defend yourself as a child. The armor is useful for a time, but it becomes confining over the course of your life. Engaged well and with God’s help, the work leads you toward wholeness (not typecasting) and is for the benefit of others as well as yourself.
That is very well-put. I’m completing my Enneagram coaching certification, and I really appreciate the way you explained it. Beth McCord has had a lot to say on this topic. She has a podcast (and company) called Your Enneagram Coach.
As I said, Fr. Pacwa was one of the first Americans to be trained in the Enneagram, in his seminary days. I trust his critique of it. If I had his book to hand, I could give you the particulars. It was supposed to be derived from ancient practices of the Sufis (Islamic mystics). But it was only invented in the 20th C. The Islamic angle is part of the con. The one bit of Islamic trimming is a reference to an entity called "the Green Kutub." "Kutub" means pillar in Arabic and green is the Muslim holy color.
One of the core parts of many Western occult traditions is making them amenable/accessible to people with a WEIRD mindset - Crowley claimed he was simply applying the scientific method to spirituality, running himself through trials to see what produced results. Austin Osman Spare's weird sigil magic stuff (and Chaos Magic, its descendent) are swaddled in postmodern and psychological jargon about the permeable and unstable nature of reality and perception. All the branding puts these things in a different bucket than "religion" since they tend to be results/outcome oriented, whereas religion is perceived to be an ongoing set of practices and commitments.
I am called Chaos Mage. I didn't know that label/term until a spiritual brother introduced me to it. The following are my opinions based upon experience. I'm open to any civil challenge to them.
I have learned that "sleepwalking" is a mild -- polite, even -- description, and I include many faith traditions in that critique, including many of my Pagan siblings in faith. The use of entheogens is very common where those substances are found in Nature. In every culture that I've studied or about which I've read, no one uses them without a guide, an anchor point to which they can flee if they need to do so.
Crowley was a piece of work. He is revered by modern chapters of the OTO (Ordo Templi Orientis). Those OTO members of my acquaintance will readily admit Crowley's flaws and unsavory aspects.
Chaos Magic (at least as a practice) is ancient. Spare brought a modern "structure" to it (you will note the inherent pun in that), Chaos has always been the realm of the shaman -- the spiritual guide and servant to their community. Early European contacts with shamans only saw their hostility. They didn't see their recognition of the danger the Europeans brought, and were acting to defend and protect their communities.
The modern "incarnations" of these things are, well, dangerous (emphatically agreeing with Rod here) because they are approached superficially, and too often without a guide. Astrology, Tarot, other forms of divination are ground-level practices which many take seriously from a point of balance. They are not a matter of belief. They are a matter of exploration and discovery. The first point of horoscopes in newspapers was to acquire and keep subscribers.
The primary danger (putting this last to see how many avoid tl;dr :D) is the ego. Lucifer's (Satan's if one prefers) effective deceptions start with capturing one's ego, then manipulating it. Jesus Christ's rejection of Lucifer's temptations showed that He had his ego in strong check. That's my "analysis" of such things, couched in Rod's original context here. The first skill a shaman or chaos mage must use is ego disengagement. Too many think of this as ego loss, and I assure one and all that my ego remains intact before and after I employ that skill... well, some might dispute that, but that's okay. 😉
Franklin, I always enjoy reading your posts on here since I don't know if I actually know anyone who openly identifies as a pagan. It's always interesting to hear from someone whose beliefs are not so common where I live.
Thank you very much, Joshua. There's an international organization called Pagan Pride Day Project. It's mandate to local use of it, usually around September: free and open to the public with the intent to gently introduce people to modern Paganism; must include a local charity (food bank, libraries, etc.); must abide by local ordinances for public events; may include vendors and entertainment.
I've been the local coordinator for this event. The primary mandate -- to show our honest and accurate "faces" to the public, became a personal ethical stance. Rod, in his compassion and generosity, befriended me and taught me that Christianity is not our enemy, and that many Christians understand this as well. I should note and emphasize that despite a deserved reputation for some few cults, modern Pagans do not proselytize. In fact, they accept newcomers who want to learn, and are very explicit about what they will learn.
A search on "Pagan Pride Day near me" will show you if there's an event that is accessible to you.
Thank you.
With reference to the "unstable nature of reality", I think that idealism, or anti-realism is probably the most damaging thing to have come out of what is broadly termed the Enlightenment. The conceptualization of consciousness put forth by Hume has become the default way that people think about how we know what is, but it is deeply flawed. The result is the asinine conviction that we can never really know the so-called "really real."
Idealism has its roots in Plato (and probably in ancient mystery cults before him), but I agree that the Enlightenment era took it too far. Still, even in traditional Eastern Christian thought we are advised that God's Essence is unknowable; only his Energies (more or less, his actions in Time) can be known.
In Luther's Small Catechism, the explanation of the Second Commandment (You shall not misuse the Lord your God) says that "we should fear and love God so that we do not curse, swear, use satanic arts..." An earlier translation says simply "witchcraft." I would include psychedelics and all occult practices under this prohibition. God gives us the law because He loves us and seeks to protect us.
Correction on the Second Commandment: "You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God." Note: Luther numbers the commandments differently than most protestants do today. Rod: you can look this up in the catechism that Bryan Wolfmueller gave you that time in Houston!
I believe we Lutherans number the Commandments the same as Roman Catholics.
So, if I understand this correctly, the occult is real and powerful, but only if you believe in the occult. So how powerful can it really be if you can wall it off and keep it out by a simple act of will? I suppose this phenomena finds fertile and prepared ground among those preconditioned to believe in conspiracies and trained to see competence when their lying eyes tell them otherwise.
You couldn't have understood it less correctly.
The occult is real and powerful and the Devil would be only too glad if you didn't believe it was.
Your last sentence is not comprehensible, to me, at any rate.
Essentially, I said it takes belief in the occult for it to have any physical manifestations on you. Don't believe, no problem.
Not correct. The "occult" is every bit as real as physical reality. But the entities who do not have your best interests at heart absolutely love those who hold such naivete. LIke the quote of the best trick the Devil ever pulled was thinking he does not exist.
The 2nd best, of course, is convincing others that he does exist, but he is the good guy.
Ya believe what you wanna believe. Belief alone doesn't make it so.
I go by Scripture. And there is nothing in there about unbelief making you immune to spiritual threat. But you want to be the fool and whistle in the graveyard, up to you.
That's not true, though. Not at all. What *is* true is that if you open yourself up to it, you invite it into your life. But it can enter your life under some circumstances even if you don't want it to. In "Living In Wonder," the stories of Tammy Comer, and my NYC friend "Emma," testify to this.
That's delusion of the most destructive kind.
We can always say No to the Darkness-- if we understand that is what is seeking to mislead us. Unfortunately Satan can wear a fair face and deceive us with pretty lies.
No, you have not understood it correctly at all. People who don't believe in the occult can easily be targeted both by demons and people who use the occult.
Hopefully Rod will take time to confirm this.
Again, as I understand it, the occult refers to the supernatural, or that which can't be seen or measured by the rational senses. So how does this apply to belief in God? Just so. Like Paul, I know whom I have believed, and I am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day. Does this necessarily mean I believe in the hosts of demons and devils others see as manifest in their lives? No. I don't. I don't want to. I don't need to. And I'm not bothered by it.
Rod and I agree about much. This is not one of those things.
Okay so your previous comment was poorly worded when you said "So, if I understand this correctly, the occult is real and powerful, but only if you believe in the occult."
I've discussed this with with Rod before and I think I'm pretty sure he'd agree that our understand would be demons are perfectly content to work with whatever tools you give them which would include nonbelief. And futher non belief is no defense against sorcery.
He can correct me if that's not his take, but that's been what I've observed.
This is absolutely correct. Demons do not need you personally addressing them to give them avenues through which to act.
Your perception and conclusion are valid, but I can assure you from personal experience that it is vulnerable. I don't mean it quite the same way as others do in their rebuttals to you.
"Occult" literal meaning is "hidden". There is, in my view, exactly one point on which all faith traditions agree: in the spiritual sense, the Occult is real. Few such traditions agree on other points -- definitions, anthropomorphic manifestations (demons, etc.); ascribing value judgments of good and evil -- and it has its parallel in the Pagan world: put six Pagans in a room and challenge them to define Paganism. You'll not know what the six definitions are because they'll be mired in an argument over a seventh one. That's a bit of self-deprecating humor, but it's essentially accurate.
I consulted with a Christian exorcist once. He came to me hoping I could assist him in an exorcism. I desperately wanted to help him, but he was stuck -- trapped, I thought at the time -- in a narrow Christian view. He had not (yet) engaged a mental health professional. He was genuinely committed to helping the victim, and took that advice immediately. In the end, the victim was treated for a mental illness and improved very nicely.
The line between mental illness and supernatural is a constantly moving line. In ancient times, there was no line, and everything in this context was supernatural. In our modern world, Science simply doesn't have all of the answers, and may never accomplish that.
Then there is mental health . . . . I'm not sure how this defeats my observation that the supernatural only manifests itself to those who believe in it. After all, someone suffering from a mental disease or defect constructs their own environment or mental milieu. What appears real to them might appear aberrational to others.
The examples of unbelievers confronted with demons that dispel their unbelief in demons remind me of nothing so much as the experience of evangelical Christians who came to see Jesus as the Son of God who died for their salvation. For other unbelievers who didn't experience the same salvation experience, what is shared with them by the converted remains mysterious and in no way affects their lives.
Indeed, science does make progress in the rational (as opposed to supernatural) world. Perhaps someday science will knock down the barriers between the two, in whole or in part. Until then . . . .
I am guided by two principles. I post them here to be informative, not argumentative.
From Wikipedia (echoed in other sources): In psychology, the collective unconsciousness (German: kollektives Unbewusstes) is a coined term by Carl Jung, which is the belief that the unconscious mind comprises the instincts of Jungian archetypes—innate symbols understood from birth in all humans.[1] Jung considered the collective unconscious to underpin and surround the unconscious mind, distinguishing it from the personal unconscious of Freudian psychoanalysis. He believed that the concept of the collective unconscious helps to explain why similar themes occur in mythologies around the world. He argued that the collective unconscious had a profound influence on the lives of individuals, who lived out its symbols and clothed them in meaning through their experiences. The psychotherapeutic practice of analytical psychology revolves around examining the patient's relationship to the collective unconscious.
Jung's concept is echoed in another context by Joseph Campbell, the mythologist and myth analyst when he described the "Hero with a Thousand Faces". His analysis is very involved, but it (barely adequately) can be summarized as a storytelling context of Jung's concept.
Our world remains barely explored. Religions and belief systems remain the most common attempt to process the unknown until it becomes rationally knowable.
Read Rod's book....
Talk about missing the point. One doesn't have to believe in "the occult", in the sense of full-blown demonology, in order to be ensnared in that world. As Rod has tirelessly pointed out, all one has to do is engage in certain occult-adjacent (and Bible-forbidden) activities such as psychedelics, tarot cards, Ouija boards, etc. to be drawn in without even realizing it. It has been pointed out that the devil's greatest trick is persuading people that he doesn't exist, but by no means does that immunize them from his influence. To the contrary, they are more vulnerable because they are defenseless.
" . . . to be drawn in . . ." Doesn't this concede my case? If you are not in, you are out. I'll stay out, thank you very much.
Surely there are some things that are rank superstititions whatever their roots? I am volunteering at a local animal shelter these days. I've been doing it long enough to note that, yes, black cats tend not to be readily adopted-- even though the black cats they have are friendly and personable creatures. Things like black cat superstitions really do have no basis in fact and are spiritually risible. (Add four leaf clovers, rabbits' feet, broken mirrors, walking under ladders etc., etc to that list.)
For the record, I love black cats. But of course, i am not a witch nor use them as some kind of occult focus. They are just cats, members of my family.
I have owned three black cats, two kittens still living. The one long dead was a great friend and so are the two kittens.
Neither do witches "use" black (or any colored) cats. Cats are the ultimate predators, always borderline feral, and are capable of controlling pests and vermin up to twice their size. Cats are keenly perceptive, especially in low-light conditions. Every house with one or more cats teaches their humans a deep appreciation for them.
By the way, you likely understand very well the term "like herding cats". 😊
Very much so. As well as appreciate the very individual personalities cats possess, very distinctive, going back to the memories of the very first cat in my family, Storm. You are missed still, buddy. See you in Heaven.
Amen to this. It's sometimes said that while we domesticated dogs and other animals, cats domesticated themselves-- and maybe us as well.
The Egyptians ascribed a spiritual significance to cats. Bastet (possibly of Nubian origin) was worshiped in the manner the Egyptians used, but cats were honored for their predatory abilities as well as their companionship. The anthropological view was that cats were creatures of opportunity, and Egyptians quite easily "adopted" them.
There is a meme I occassionally post on my Facebook. It is a photo of a large-ish feline piece of Egyptian statuary, with a small fluffy kitten sitting next to it. The photo was snapped when the two appeared to be looking at each other. The dialogue:
Statue: "So, my child, do the humans still worship us as in days of old?"
Kitten: "Well, I shit in a box. Then they clean it up."
Statue: "Good. Good."
The first evidence we have of cat domestication comes from Cyprus in the early Neolithic, long before Egyptian civilization arose. The animal, which is descended from a Middle Eastern subspecies pretty much exclusively, also made it to eastern Asia by 3000BC- some centuries before even horses were brought to China.
I am happily domesticated by my cats.
Superstions and the occult are two different things. When I got my black cat he was the only cat at the shelter, but I would have chosen him anyway. He's very sweet, at least to people.
Black cat superstitions are not only real but can have real physical consequences for the cats. The references to a "black cat bone" in a couple of old blues songs is about a real voodoo-sort-of practice.
I dearly love my beautiful black cat, btw.
Yes, black cat bones bring a decent price unfortunately.
I’ve read the American colonists considered black cats to be good luck, and consequently would take off pieces of their tails and ears.
I'm old enough to remember that Cubs legend and Hall-of-Famer Ron Santo would hop over the foul line going to the dug-out. Pretty silly, of course.
Are you familiar with the book "The Devil in the City of Angels" by Jesse Romero? Jesse came to speak to one of our Confirmation classes a couple of years ago. I am Catholic, in the Denver area, and we do hear about the diabolical, although often from visiting speakers. God bless you and your work.
I’m a reformed Catholic spirit communicator now spreading the warning about it all. Been working on a book about grief as a doorway to the demonic and have found that Catholics are the most insidious promoters of the occult not only through people like Theresa Caputo and others—Many will die on the hill of defense of the channeled and demonic Urantia Book, and the Chicago Archdiocesan newspaper is filed with workshops for Centering prayer, enneagrams, Labyrinth exercises and charismatic healing meetings. Worst of all is the promotion of the diabolical Extraterrestrial Hypothesis. The devil needs to find no point of entry. He is already here and very welcomed by millions.
Could you say more how centering prayer, labyrinth exercises and charismatic healing meetings are doorways to the occult? Seems to me those are doorways to knowing the Lord but I am interested in hearing more of your thoughts.
All can blur the boundaries between Christ-centered worship and methods that have New Age or occult origins. In the case of labyrinths, which historically served as symbolic pilgrimages in medieval Catholic settings, the practice has now often been repurposed to encourage a kind of mind-emptying that may unknowingly invite deceptive spirits. Likewise, the Enneagram, despite being presented as a harmless tool for personal insight, is rooted in esoteric teachings from figures like Gurdjieff and Ichazo, which can overshadow authentic Catholic means of sanctification through prayer, the sacraments, and obedience to Church authority. As for charismatic healing, although there is a legitimate form of this ministry within Catholicism, too many offshoots chase dramatic “signs and wonders” or focus on individual “healers” without proper discernment, potentially veering into counterfeit spirituality instead of relying on the grace God offers through the sacraments. I myself was involved in Centering Prayer which tells us to empty our minds so God’s will can take over our own wills. A very bad idea. Anything that requires an empty mind or seeks to be taken over by spiritual forces is to be avoided… it risks creating a vulnerable space where the demonic can slip through under the guise of spiritual enlightenment or healing. God bless!
I think you must have had a poor teacher of centering prayer. Perhaps you might read The Cloud of Unknowing, a revered instruction on contemplation (which is different from meditation) which has helped Catholics for about 700 years. And in my experience, the labyrinth is still used as a symbolic pilgrimage.
I am intimately acquainted with The Cloud of Unknowing. In my opinion both Centering Prayer and the current popular practice of the Labyrinth are poor comparisons. I’m glad to hear you seem to have a better experience of the Labyrinth. A great experience in its earlier form
I'm extremely skeptical of the charismatic movement within Catholicism. I do believe their intentions are probably good but especially now, when we no longer live in Christendom and with most Catholics being so poorly formed I think it's dangerous. Having heard charismatics speak and describe their experiences it seems like they are trying to 'summon' the Spirit somehow, but the Holy Spirit is part of the Triune God and you can't summon God. So what exactly are they summoning? The one prayer session I went to was really weird because everyone was expected to go forth and somehow receive the Holy Spirit from someone who was not even a religious. By what right do they claim that they can offer people the Holy Spirit? The whole thing was just really weird.
Also, I wholeheartedly agree that any kind of practice that encourages someone to completely empty their mind can open the door to the demonic. I am a big proponent of mindfulness but I use methods that are Catholic and always centered on God.
Amen to all this
The Catholic Church's response to New Age phenomena is nicely summarized in a document issued by the Pontifical Council for Culture about 20 years ago: Jesus Christ, Bearer of the Water of Life. It's available as a booklet from the usual sources. Yes, Centering prayer and the Enneagram are condemned.
Fr. Mitch Pacwa was one of the first Americans trained in the Enneagram and since has been a notable debunker of that program. See his book Catholics and the New Age. In sort, it has been falsely represented as an ancient Sufi practice but was really created by a modern occultist with "help" from spirits. It's also bad psychology.
An old but sound anti-New Age book is Unmasking the New Age by Douglas Groothuis, a Protestant.
I got into writing for the Catholic press 40 years ago because I had knowledge of NeoPaganism from knowing Pagans in the science fiction community. I wrote and spoke about New Age topics, although not lately. Please leave all occultismt alone! All of it, even if religious leaders praise it! But also be wary of people who claim to be converted witches or satanists or whatever who traffic in sensationalism. (This doesn't apply to Rod's account of a man ensnared by demons which sounds authentic.) I've studied the history of many occult practices and have quite a research library on same but I didn't do any of them, I assure you.
Ursula, did your family live in Indianapolis t one time? If so, I knew them.
I did some of them (prior to my conversion to Orthodoxy) and would give the same advice.
The Enneagram also uses a very old trick of con-men: it includes a bunch of laudable descriptions that people like to claim for themselves so it invites belief without serious consideration. (I had some contact with the Enneagram through a therapist I consulted for depression. I found it to be pretty dubious stuff).
Exactly !
This is inaccurate. Actually, when most people discern their type, they are not so happy with the description. I don’t know many who like to admit that they struggle with fear, gluttony, envy, deceit, etc.
I don't recall any such negative descriptions. There were notes about "problem" behaviors, but these were presented as excesses of the positive traits.
Heck yes
Our Episcopal church invited a speaker who was a big advocate of the enneagram, and many of the Episcopal churches in my area have labyrinths. Are these occult or occult-adjacent? I don't really know anything about them.
No, the Enneagram is not occult-adjacent. The prior poster is likely referring to concerns which have been raised regarding one of its founders Claudio Naranjo’s “automatic writings.” This phrase has been interpreted by some to mean that he was receiving instruction from some satanic or demonic being. What is more likely, according to those who studied under him is that he was writing in a stream of consciousness style or “letting all of his thoughts flow.”
There have been many pieces written to address these concerns. Beth McCord comes to mind. She is a an Enneagram teacher who specializes in helping others apply this framework to their Christian walk.
The following is a rebuttal from Christian author Chuck Degroat to a Gospel Coalition article warning about the Enneagram. You can find TGC article linked also.
https://www.chuckdegroat.net/chuck-degroat-blog/2018/08/09/a-response-to-joe-carters-tgc-blog-the-faqs-what-christians-should-know-about-the-enneagram
I'm not sure that labyrinth are demonic; they may just be inane. There is a certain kind of person that is attracted to them, and they tend to be a few pickles short of a barrel.
There is a labyrinth in front of the porch of the Cathedral at Chartres.
Just WTH is a spirit communicator? Because it doesn't sound like a Good Thing.
Sounds about as ominous as a skinwalker.
All I can say is alarm bells went off in my head.
All I can say is, I have next to no idea what anyone is talking about today!
Maybe it's the Church's version of MKUltra.
Yikes- I don’t know what that is either. I’m a mere peasant.
It’s insane but Catholics began modern spirit communication practices and had the support of the Vatican. If you Google “the pope’s ghost hunters” you’ll see
All I can say is Be Careful.
I may be reading this wrong, but are you saying you used to be a catholic spirit communicator? And now you are reformed? Or you are a reformed Catholic who is a spirit communicator?
Edit to say that based on your other comments I’m assuming you used to be a spirit communicator.
Are enneagrams demonic? I know Christians who think they are great. I'd love to see information to the contrary.
Read this eye-opening Substack: https://open.substack.com/pub/christinalynnwallace/p/the-truth-about-the-enneagram-that?r=b9mq5&utm_medium=ios
Thank you!
You hurt yourself associating with Peter Thiel. Let him screen it if he wants but I would not attend.
Yeah you might get gay cooties from him.
It isn't that Thiel is gay. It's that he is one of the most prominent transhumanists.
+1000
I still have my subscription for a few days, which I have decided not to renew largely because of Rod's association with Thiel (and Musk and Jordan Peterson, but Thiel is the most extreme; there's the Israel issue too).
Giving Rod the benefit of the doubt -- that he is not deliberately in league with Satan -- he really is playing with fire associating with the likes of Thiel, who stands for exactly the sorts of things that Rod has repeatedly warned us about.
I agree with you about Thiel. And I will miss you here.
I am with Jon. Rombald, you should not leave. You have a fine mind and you express yourself well. It would be a loss for the site if you turned it off.
You will be missed, Rombald. Yes, even by the "heretic."
Although I'm not involved in the tech subculture in any way, shape, or form, living in the Bay Area I've met many Silicon Valley types over the years and can say without hesitation: no one on the Spectrum (TM) should ever be handed the reigns of power. Every time Musk opens his mouth, I'm reminded of this maxim.
In any case, I hope you stick around Rombald. We need more to remind us that transhumanism is not compatible with Christianity and that criticizing Israeli excesses in Gaza is not antisemitism, among other things.
There is even this weird stuff going on with Agriculture where you grow according to things in the sky. I forgot what it is called and is very common with wine.
It's called biodynamic agriculture, and was introduced by Rudolph Steiner, based on his work. I got interested in it and even went to a biodynamic ag conference a number of years ago. It is indeed occult. Steiner had all kind of wild ideas. He wrote a book on agriculture.
Apparently it can be quite effective, though: I know a guy who has long run his farm on such principles, sounds like to great success. I think it simply isn't occult if you aren't communicating with unclean spirits. To look at the sky and draw inferences, even weird or unusual inferences—not occult, no more than trying to tell the future by looking for a rain cloud.
You can be into regenerative farming, which I am on my on orchard and homestead without the crazy weird ideas and occult stuff.
Yes, it is effective. It works. And point taken about maybe it's not "occult" if you're not intentionally communicating with unclean spirits. I doubt most of the biodynamic farmers I met were actively trying to seance in with the spirits.
There are some practices that look weird from the outside, like putting manure inside a cow horn, and burying it on the farm. You have to mix the manure in a very specific manner, and stir it together under the moonlight at a specific time in the lunar cycle. Planting calendars aligned with the astrological positions of different celestial objects... but then, that might be similar to the farmer's almanac.
Steiner had a lot of very detailed ideas about carbon, sulfur, and various other elements and how they aligned with the different planets. These ideas form the foundation of those biodynamic practices.
Well, if it does work, then the practices meet the criterion for scientific truth, right? You conduct the experiment, and you achieve the intended result. It makes me think of the old-school term "natural philosophy," from back when science wasn't so materialistically walled off from philosophical and spiritual speculation. (And of course, such speculation flowered within Catholic Christendom.)
Yes indeed, and Steiner asserted that he was doing science. He wanted to bring the scientific method to spiritual matters, and approach spirituality as science, calling it "spiritual science". I really find him a fascinating character. Maybe many years hence, when I'm a more seasoned Orthodox christian, I'll read some of his stuff again. As of now, I feel like it's too risky that I get sucked back into the new age rabbit hole.
That is very weird. Grind that horn up and make the calcium available faster or maybe you are going for slow release. The rest is just new age stupidity.
Horn is made of keratin, like your fingernails. There's no calcium in it.
Now that I think of it, I do remember there being some sessions at the Biodynamic Ag conference about "communicating with the nature spirits" though.... I think they called them "elementals" or something similar. That doesn't necessarily mean that every biodynamic farmer tries to do that.
I dunno: is it just a right-brained way of regarding all things as alive and enchanted and filled with spirits?—a sort of universal animism, which I think is also not what’s condemned under the heading of “divination.” Indeed, the real crime is in seeing all things as nothing but dead matter.
Here you are I are in agreement. One ought not fall into the error of worshiping the Creation, but that does not mean that the Creation is naught but dead matter in random motion. It's a gross error to "exile" Spirit from this world and into a special "supernatural" world beyond. "God is in all places and fills all things".
How much of that is occult, and how much just bad science?
"Biodynamic agriculture." Huh
Sounds an awful lot like "planting by the signs," an age-old practice since long before Steiner, I think. Both of my grandfathers and all the neighboring farmers used this.
The Farmers Almanac does reference astrological signs - as, I think, a kind of calendar - but I never heard any farmers talk about astrological signs, but rather signs of nature. Nothing remotely religious about it, in my experience.
Well, the intrinsic spiritual aspect of farming would have to do with sensing how Nature has a rhythm, and how you have to align your own activities with that rhythm. The Catholic calendar is strongly connected to the agricultural cycle of the year.
Yes! I believe this is what they were practicing - alignment with nature and its cycles and rhythms as we've done for ages past.
Well, I think the evil in Astrology comes from running your life in accordance with what some fortune teller might advise, trying to tell the future, etc. I do think in many ways we have thrown the baby out with the bathwater. The problem is, we are all flawed and gullible and there's that. There are Christians who believe that the original signs of the zodiac were created to tell the Gospel to ancient people. I think that could be true. God has His own relationship with His creation and who are we to dictate what He can do? That said, I have to be really careful to discern what I think may be true vs what I know to be true- that Jesus died for our sins and will return again one day for His bride. I avoid speaking of these type ideas with non Christians, because without humility and a grain of salt, they could be led the wrong way.
Definitely. Likewise, I think the Tarot is harmless if approached in the right spirit—but that doesn’t mean I feel exactly at ease if I run into a lesbian witch with a deck of cards. Then again, I probably wouldn’t be at ease with a lesbian witch holding much of anything: “Um, so what do you intend to do with that object? . . .”
I have just heard of it a bit. Never really looked into it.
Just a friendly esoteric reminder, as usual: "divination" in the biblical sense refers to the practice of attempting to contact unclean spirits. And simple contemplation—either of cards or the stars—does not qualify as divination in this sense. The Magi were astrologers, so how do we square that circle? Some things are used for divination by some people, but that doesn't mean such use is intrinsic to what those things are. (The ouija board, on the other hand, has no other purpose than to contact unclean spirits, and that's why it's evil.)
Also, a lot of New Agey stuff—crystals, yoga—would seem to pertain to the psychical realm rather than the spiritual realm proper. There is probably a "natural philosophy" of things such as subtle energies flowing through the body (think chakras and chi), which doesn't have anything to do with spirits per se; it's just the libidinal-emotional architecture that corresponds to the architecture of the flesh at the gross level. But wantonly playing with such things could probably cause psychical damage, which *then* opens pathways to unclean spirits.
Sethu, I often find your posts interesting--this one as well.
One the subject of the occult, I am very thankful for our Anglican priest at our church in Virginia. One Sunday, some years ago, he included an admonition against astrology--even reading such columns in the newspaper or online--in his sermon.
God spoke to me that day as I had read them for amusement, but Fr. Jeff's warning showed me that I should totally eschew such readings.
This is a simple but effective part of a priest's responsibility, imho, to "care for his flock".
Cool if that worked for you. My point would just be that astrology as a symbolic and structural language for reading God’s dial is fine, but astrology as a means to contact unclean spirits is not. If that distinction is too subtle for any given person to grasp, then yeah, they should forget the whole thing. But the real distinction does exist.
Also, people just *say* a lot of things. There were priests saying *Harry Potter*—a Christian allegory written by a Christian—is occult because it involves “magic.” A lot of the fear here strikes me as being at about that level of basic misunderstanding.
Sure there are some that are misled or not understanding.
However, if it is a stumbling block (as per Paul) not worth it imho
The flip side is that at some level, anything even somewhat challenging could be a stumbling block to anyone, so I don't favor reading St. Paul as endorsing a race to the bottom, or a reduction of all talents to the lowest common denominator.
If an author worried about no one out there misunderstanding his book, then he would never be able to write the thing.
Not sure I'm following you here.
I just mean that we should be considerate and not be a stumbling block to others if it can be helped, but we're also called to be truthful, especially with creative and intellectual endeavors. Has someone out there been misled by JK Rowling's use of magic in her books? Sure, probably. But that doesn't mean she should have therefore not included magic in her books.
So, in the case of astrology, can it mislead people? Sure, of course it can. But I don't think we should therefore exaggerate the threat, or not be truthful about the dangers vs. the innocuous aspects as we understand it. I've thought about the "stumbling block" line before, and I worry about it being taken in a way that condemns in advance any such intellectual complexity, on the grounds that it *could* mislead people.
The difference is, Harry Potter is myth. Fantasy. Though occultists and fantasists use similar language sometimes, they are not remotely the same thing. And unfortunately, some fantasy fans, with their penchant for the strange, other personality traits, and out of some ignorance, cross over from fantasy into dabbling with this stuff, thinking they can become "real" wizards. Which will take them down a bad road.
Harry Potter, Dungeons and Dragons, myths, fairy tales, wonderful stuff, nothing wrong with it. But it is just fantasy. If some schmuck comes telling you how YOU TOO can be a wizard, run.
And tell the well-meaning, though ignorant priests/preachers to chill out. Authors, including Christian ones, are strongly aware of how tales of myth, legend, mystery and heroism can help fortify good character in a person. If read with the right frame of mind.
A young man at our parish is (Lord willing) about to head off to seminary to become a priest. He grew up in the occult and knows the perils well. He's quite frank that he was practicing sorcery and communing with quite active spirits. Please pray for him and his family. I think he's going to be a great priest.
So, Rod worked with LSD and came to Jesus. His friend, Shawn Ryan? Healed. Rod hears stories about the faithful and pious working with these medicines. Many of which (not the LSD) are naturally given by God to us. I have a similar experience, myself. Delivered from drug addiction and to the doors of Orthodoxy *partly* due to my experience with these medicines. Additionally, Rod hears -- anecdotally -- that people in Christian communities throughout the world are working with psychedelics, and finding these medicines to be potentiators to faith. Heck, the woman who re-introduced psilocybin to the West -- Maria Sabina -- was also a Christian. And she paid a price for it, too.
And despite all this he says:
"I absolutely believe [positively working with psychedelics] that is possible — because I experienced a far lesser version of the same thing. Yet I would say for the vast majority of people who are drawn to experimenting with these substances, there is no good reason to put themselves in that kind of spiritual peril."
Citation, please, Rod.
Yes, many are led down different paths. Their are reasons for this. Maybe a Jewish person doesn't come to Christ. A committed secular humanist? Same. But someone who wants to come to Christ? Someone with a God-shaped soul in her heart shaped like Christ? Working with a guide who also appreciates and valorizes Christ? Psychedelics are, in the words of Stan Grof, "non-specific amplifiers of the psyche." They are very unlikely to make a person something he or she is not.
Rod, I yet again invite you to talk to someone who knows this area in a different way. You cherry-pick the people to whom you speak about this. Obviously. For reasons I don't understand. It would be a gift to God if you considered not doing that, and I would be thrilled to help you get in touch with such people. The offer is there. Sincere. God-centered. Open. Take me up.
I think the differentiation comes from what your purpose is. Are you using recreationally and habitually? Are you using as a medicine? Certainly God put certain plants on this Earth to help heal us. I personally think that using a psychedelic as a one-time experience to help heal trauma is a much better option than a lifetime of daily anti-depressants or anti-anxiety drugs.
But if the psychedelic-drug experience turns into an addiction, then I think you open yourself up to unwanted, spiritual influence.
I think, like with any substance that causes physical or physiological changes in your body, you need to use psychedelics in a limited and always monitored environment. As in a medically monitored environment.
Trying some "good shit" that your hippie- dip friend Pussy Willow picked up down in Baja and brought to your cookout 'Cause it will, like, mellow you out and let the universe tell you her secrets and stuff is a bad idea, especially if you keep doing it. I realize, of course, that this is basically how Rod says that he did LSD and that's not a good idea or method, IMO, for anybody to fool around with these things. Rod got lucky.
The sort of thing you're describing happens. For sure! The epiphany that assisted me in becoming sober from booze and weed was midwifed by LSD, and it was not a part of any intention I set. These positive things do happen organically.
But any person familiar with these medicines as medicines knows what set and setting are. They also know -- I'll mention as an aside -- that a formally clinical/medical "setting" is a terrible one for these purposes. There are best practices. They are rather well known.
When people engage with these medicines with these best practices in a setting that aligns to their values, good things happen. Do good things happen ALL the time? Well, no. That doesn't even happen with aspirin, which definitely would NOT be an over the counter drug if introduced today. And it definitely doesn't happen with -- say -- SSRIs or ECT.
There are lots of spiritual and mental health tools at our disposal. These medicines are one of them. As is, for example, EMDR. Which strikes me as a modality Rod would definitely lump into the others he discusses in this post, except for the fact he tried it and liked it.
I understand skepticism around psychedelics. That is healthy. And negative spiritual consequences are a potential hazard. Working with these medicines is serious business requiring guidance and discernment. What I don't understand is Rod's bigotry against them.
Oh, it was not just luck. Someone (the Lord) was looking out for him. Like me and my experiments with OBEs. I had some real success with that and could have gone further, but something stopped me in my explorations. I believe the Lord ran interference for me an allowed me a spiritual time-out to contemplate what I was doing and get my act together before things got really dangerous.
Cooked Barbarian, taking psychedelics is a form of idolatry. Try taking Holy Communion, going to Confession, practicing regular prayer (vocal (meaning formulaic), meditation and contemplation). Rod had an exceptional experience. Do I think there is a use for psychedelics? Probably yes--should be closely monitored for treating things like profound depression (I'm not an expert in this area, but could entertain and do research on this topic, except it doesn't interest me that much), and PTSD, etc. All use has to be medically supervised and backed up by research.
Why? Because otherwise one is practicing idolatry. The first commandment is really foundational and a lot of people miss it. They miss it and then get addictions (drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, weird compulsions, want to be on the internet all day, want to watch sports all day). We need the real thing--otherwise, we get the "unreal" (fake) stuff. And the fake stuff does not give us the strength we need to resist the 7 deadly sins--anger, envy, pride, sloth, gluttony, lust and greed. The "real" things builds us up in the virtues and bestows the gifts of the Holy Spirit -- joy, love, peace, mildness, forebearance, long suffering, all the good stuff.
I don’t think I follow how it’s intrinsically idolatrous, given that idolatry is first and foremost a subjective *attitude*. Alcohol is an idol to an alcoholic, but not to a healthy drinker; an icon is an idol if you worship the piece of wood and not the God behind it. If a person eats a mushroom while giving thanks to God for creating it, then well, he could a lot of things, but idolatrous isn’t one of them.
More broadly, whether any given thing is an idol or a sacrament depends largely on what it *does*, functionally, to your relationship with God. And again, the one and same thing can have radically different effects on different people, depending on their approach and intent and context. Even the Eucharist can become an idol, in the most extreme case.
If God specifically tells you not to do X and you decide you know better and are going to do it, no matter what. That would be like alcohol. We are not told to abstain from alcohol, but to avoid drunkenness. But if you decided you are out to get TO' UP anyway, disregarding Scripture, well, you've stepped outside His will. And that causes problems, including spiritual ones.
If the Lord says "no," He means it. A human is not going to be able to debate it with Him.
The point would still stand, though, that the drug isn’t uniquely an *idol* as Anne argued, except in the general sense that all disobedience could be framed as idolatry.
(This is also assuming that the Bible does unequivocally condemn what we would call psychedelics, which I won’t contest for present purposes. I don’t use them, in any case.)
The best argument I have found making the theological case that psychedelics are uniquely forbidden is in this article entitled "The Psychedelic Renaissance: A Catholic Perspective." I have attempted to engage the author, but much like with Rod, to no avail:
https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC11559537/
I think the author -- Thomas Carroll, an MD at the University of Rochester -- makes some of the same misteps I have characterized here.
His objections which are relevant to this conversation hinge on a few things:
1. These medicines have the potential to change people in ways contrary to the spiritual ethos of Christian piety
2. Using these medicines with an intention for Christian spiritual growth are contrary to Christian ethics as we would be demanding something from God that He must give freely; Rod touches on this with his observation that Demons will be happy to fulfill a human request for interaction
My counter suggests acknowledgement of discerning set and setting as a part of best practices in working with these medicines. If one centers one's faith, works with a guide friendly to that faith, and adopts best practices around setting, preparation, and integration there is no more spiritual hazard for either of these things than when a person decides to go on a Christian retreat.
Idolatry is not relevant. Or, more accurately, it doesn't HAVE to be relevant. There are people who work with these medicines sacramentally. But this is not required. The hazards of gluttony and intoxication for which there are clearer Biblical parallels, similarly, are not relevant. Heck, these medicines are for many an aid to ameliorate addiction. How? Well, in my experience, because of how they can help with the first step of AA: Surrender. Which God also asks of us.
Again, don't get me wrong: Are there risks if handled inappropriately? Absolutely! But these risks pertain to all medicines, and therapeutic modalities. For a Christian, are there licit and illicit ways to do yoga? Meditate? Participate in therapy? Yes. Does that make yoga, meditation, and therapy universally illicit? No. Going down that path is the same one entertained by evangelicals who said I can't listen to rock and roll, or play Dungeons and Dragons.
By their fruits we shall know them, right? Well, these medicines have been *a part* of my path from dissolute, selfish, suicidal alcoholism and addiction within a materialist, near-nihilist personal ethos, to a man sober over 20 years dutiful to family and community with an active Christian prayer life.
At a bare minimum, then, it seems to me we must acknowledge there is a licit way to work with these medicines, and an illicit one. And the rewards of the former can be no less than life-saving. To me, and many others, an obvious blessing.
My impression is that Rod's caution is directed primarily towards those seeking to use LSD, mushrooms or ayahuasca out of curiosity rather than to seek help for a deep problem such as PTSD, addiction or severe depression.
True.
But he also warns against working with these medicines as a spiritual aid. Even though *that is exactly how they worked for him, and he wasn't even trying to do that on purpose.*
I noticed this “soft occult” trend too. For reference, I am 33 years old and Catholic. I don’t personally know anyone who combines Catholicism with psychedelics, but I have seen Christianity combined with other new-age stuff. I haven’t seen it at my parish (though I’m not very involved outside of Sunday attendance and occasional attendance during the week).
I have a friend who is now a full-blown born-again-Christian influencer (100k followers on Instagram) and she is mixing new-age practices with Christianity. Most recently, prosperity gospel. But she is also into “manifesting.” That’s a weird one, because manifesting is typically associated with New-Age, but she mixes it in with prayer. Where does one draw the line? She often quotes Mark 11:24.
I don’t know anyone personally who does this, but I’ve seen plenty of videos on social media of young women who worship and pay homage to several goddesses, and include The Virgin Mary as one of the “goddesses.”
And then there is my cousin (also 33) who is into astrology, but has also begun praying to God. Though I think she puts more stock in astrology than God.
As for the millennial, suburban women who are into soft-occult stuff—that’s been going on since we were tweens. I remember buying popular magazines back in the day (as a 13, 14-YO), and reading about astrology and crystals and all of that junk. And now, we have “Witch-tok” (which is the witch-arm of TikTok-tok) that has become wildly popular among Gen Z and millennials. Combine that with super popular celebrities like Taylor Swift and Ariana Grande, who are very witchy, and a growing appreciation for a “witchy” aesthetics…it’s a lalapalooza effect for bored, suburban women.
Marion Zimmer Bradely hooked a lot of teen girls back in the day.
Marie Claire, Cosmopolitan, Glamour…where I grew up (in the suburbs of Chicago) we didn’t have a lot to do, especially in the winter months. Often, my girlfriends and I would walk to the local Walgreens and buy magazines. They always had astrology articles that we would read, and I do recall us trying out The Ouija board on a few occasions. There was a pull towards that “edgy” supernatural realm, at least amongst my friends and I. I would say that’s probably common for many girls. It seems like fun, and if you get a response from something, it’s exciting.
I had friends who wrote "celebrity" horoscopes for that sort of magazine: they made it all up! But it paid really well.
I wonder who writes the material for Chinese restaurants regarding the different Years. Year of the Dog. Year of the Horse. And my own Year of the Rat.
The symbols have genuinely ancient meanings, whether these are accurately summarized on menu cards or not.
Are you telling me those numbers in fortune cookies might not be accurate?
Or who writes the messages inside of fortune cookies nowadays
I'm thinking that AI took over a few jobs. . . .
I am the Dragon!
My husband and I are Dragons, too! Our son is a Tiger. Good times in our house, lol.
Oh, for sure! It’s all just general statements that can pertain to any human being. I always looked at the “love” horoscopes to try and figure out if my crush and I were compatible, haha!
A fortune teller once told me, "Soon you'll be moving to California." And I went, "What?—no." And lo and behold, I never so much as had the faintest thought of ever going to California. Hey carnival lady, I want my money back.
Haha! I had a palm reader tell me I was too young to have my fortune told, and that my future was too dark. Hmm…
How so? I'm mostly familiar with her Darkover novels which posit a world where assorted psychic talents (called "laran") are real, but are treated scientifically not mystically.
I would say "The Mists of Avalon" was definitely the gateway into being drawn into the Wicca type stuff. I was already fascinated with all the Arthurian legend stuff and for a very lonely teenage girl, it certainly filled a gap.
Plus her history of committing abuse is something that would have made me read Mists of Avalon differently
History of abuse? Wow, I had no idea. I hadn't thought about her books in years.
According to their daughter, Marion and her husband did terrible things. He died in a federal prison for child molesting. But terrible things were done to them when they were young that made them that way, something that goes unmentioned in exposes. They are to be pitied
That said, I would not recommend Mists of Avalon which peddles Triple Goddess paganism and is --to say the least--unhistorical. Sword at Sunset by Mary Renault, an actual Pagan, is much better.
Marion was way into occultism but considered herself Episcopalian. (Sorry if I made anyone wince.)
Same here. I was very confused and messed up as a teen, and perhaps that book was one of the contributing factors. I thank God for bringing me back to Him.
Likewise. I think God - even though I wasn't a proper Christian until a few years ago - Baptized, but, not raised in any faith at all - kept me from pursuing anything further than very surface level. Whereas, when I began my official conversion to the Catholic faith, I was almost immediately all in in a completely different way.
I don't know if that makes sense. Tired and in pain, lol.
I read "Mists" when I was 16, and I found it an interesting retelling of Arthurian myth, but just as Greek tragedy didn't draw me toward worship of the Greek gods, Mists didn't interest me in Celtic paganism.
In all fairness, you weren't a teenage girl, lol.
I also think it's an intriguing retelling and it was certainly compelling.
Rachel, if I were you, I'd warn your influencer instagram friend that she is practicing a form of idolatry (i.e., she is "breaking" the first commandment). "Prosperity gospel" is idolatry--using God to get money. "Manifesting" is idolatry. Referring to Our Virgin Mother as a "goddess" would not please either Our Virgin Mother or God. And if you lose your friend, well, "weigh the cost of discipleship" and find another friend. You are likely to lose her, immediately, no matter how gentley you break this "news" to her.
Well, she already dropped me as a friend…so I suppose me still calling her a friend is one-sided, haha! Ironically enough, she thinks Catholicism is satanic.
She got twisted. Pray for her. I've lost a few friends over my support of Trump and from being a Catholic (both, and separately). So, I got new friends. How? Join some church group. Book clubs. Sports teams. Take adult ed classes.
I should pray for her more often. I know she was well-intentioned, and I miss her friendship. She seems to have gotten swept away in the glitzy world of VIP social media influencers.
I gotten taken to task a couple of nights ago because I have close friend who voted for Trump-- although that friend is not a MAGA chud and he's free with criticism of Trump. Still just being Trump voter adjacent is enough to set some people off. And any way the guy chewing me out is a certified jerk who has made it clear he can't stand me from the first time I met him. I try to avoid him, though he has battened onto an elderly retired doctor I do like. Someday the jerk may catch me in a less than cheery mood and the result will be some free entertainment for the masses.
I think of a number of people I've heard talk about these things, and it's always women, who mention astrological signs and seem to think that there is some bit of truth to them. Also I remember the enneagram fad that I saw people talking about on Facebook.
In my experience, it is a female-dominated field. There was a time where I kind of got into it (a few years ago), and when I told my husband about some of my astrological research, he looked at me like I had lost my marbles. Suffice to say, he was not into it, ha!
Yeah I've never understood the appeal either. Thank you for sharing something about your life.
"If you think that having President Trump in office fighting wokeness is all we need to win the battle, well, as good as that is, you are seriously mistaken. Politics is necessary to this fight, but not remotely sufficient. This is not merely a political problem. It’s not even mostly a political problem."
And the way things are going, Trump could well be either making things worse for when the backlash comes (corruption by association), or given his newfound love for pursuing "enemies", he could well become part of the problem as he continues to overtly demand deeply un-Christian things, and Christians refuse to bow the knee. Not all oppression comes from the Left, after all, and the post-Christian right has some truly malevolent alliances moving.
HOT NEWS FLASH!!!
TRUMP LOVES TO PURSUE HIS ENEMIES!!!
https://www.thewrap.com/donald-trump-threatens-to-jail-enemies-in-doj-speech/
Politics is a powerful gateway for temptation, the most common being rage. If you a politician inspires outrage in you, the more you write about them, the bigger the gate you give Satan.
And the Devil loves to whisper in your ear "how dare they criticize YOU, how can they not see how right YOU are, look how delusional they all are mindlessly following (insert poltician's name here). Look at that one telling you to calm down, that fool doesn't see the danger does he...but you do! Look at you, you're man with information, with connections. And they question you? How dare they?"
And the devil might also be whispering in your ear to look the other way, to keep writing off or justifying each new little nudge, each little transgression. "Oh this? It's not so bad. May even be necessary. What's one more threat to rule of law, after all the other guy did plenty too... And if we don't back our guy, they'll come ofter us, and do even worse, so we have to squeeze them first.... Rights only apply to actual citizens, not visitors. How dare anyone question our great leader? How dare they be so unpatriotic?"
Of course, that's the other side of the same demonic coin.
Power is ever a great an dangerous temptation. The Devil tempted Christ with His (Christ's) own power: Be the worldly and kingly Messiah the Jews are expecting! History is littered with reformers who started out well intentioned but became so besotted with their need for power they ended very badly.
A commenter here has just said that the Magi were astrologers, so how do we as Christians deal with that? This is a commenter who claims to be a Christian, is still ( unless he hasn't informed us of a change in this regard ) attached to tarot cards, and who a year or two ordered me not to address him again. Maybe the grand manner will move him to read this.
The Magi may have been astrologers, but I can't think of anything in the Bible which tells us they remained astrologers after they saw Jesus. The Christmas star was a miracle which doesn't quite fit as a manifestation of The Holy Spirit, but probably was that in some way which is not explained to us in the Bible. My pastor knows that I have a special relish for things in the Bible which don't quite "fit," and this is one of the foremost.
No Christian can see the story of the Magi as less than adorable. There is also the subtle humor in God's having used the deludedness of the Magi to draw them to The Incarnate One who would eventually put an end to delusion forever.
Good point. It should not be troubling if the Magi were astrologers, rather than astronomers. The Lord frequently used flawed Christians and non-believers for his purposes.
Astrology and astronomy were one and the same for a long time, as were alchemy and chemistry.
I've thought about this. CS Lewis sometimes discussed the idea of the "wise pagan", a pagan who stayed away from dark stuff and was clearly working not towards aggrandizement of self, but truly seeking the Lord with the knowledge and tools they knew. The Wise Men of the Gospels may have been pagans, using pagan tools. But their hearts, their intent were pure. They were seeking the Messiah of the Hebrews, believed in him and what he meant for the world. So, when the time came, the Lord sent them an invitation to play a special part in his entrance into the world.
"Astrologer" is not perhaps the most felicitous translation of magus. And yes, astrology and astronomy were not entirely separate. They wouldn't be for centuries. One theory has suggested that the magi also may have been Zoroastrian priests.
The Church did not object to astrology as a set of symbols for organizing the cosmos. That's why the zodiac is a typical feature of medieval books of hours and appears in other decorative art. What one absolutely can't do is use it for predictions.
Same with alchemy. Its processes contributed to chemistry and its symbols chart spiritual progress. It's also the fundamental basis of the Harry Potter novels, something the Harry-haters missed.
Sounds like his character Emeth in the last battle, a righteous soldier of Calormene, who discovers his true devotion to Aslan.
A beautiful way of thinking of it! I have noticed that the commenter I alluded to seems to be a syncretist. He just loves his tarot cards! A year or two ago, I had answered a Mormon commenter, explaining that Mormon Christology is entirely corrupt and unChristian. The tarot card lover snuck up behind me and told the Mormon that he was just fine and should pay no attention to me.
That was a classless thing to do, as well as being Satanic. As I remember, I said to the tarot card lover that he could at least have given me a heads-up that he was going to do such a thing. I would have respected his doing that. He blamed me for the whole thing, and in his grand way ordered me never to address him again.
If that man is not a clinical narcissist, they don't exist.
Evidently Mr. Lime is still very sour about something, and he imagines that he's keeping his promise to not gossip about me by conspicuously avoiding my name. (He is not: this is just his usual manner of acting like a mean girl.) The reason he's forbidden from talking to me is that he's a man of vile and unstable temper, and even now he can't refrain from his obsessive slanders. I intend to block him if he continues, in which case he won't see my comments and I won't see his, ever again. That sounds pleasant.
I got sucked into the "soft occult" for a number of years in my 30s, all while I was a practicing Episcopalian. Nothing in church prepared me for its allure, or to understand that spiritual warfare was real. I was initially introduced to the new age and new thought by an executive coach I hired to help me with a career transition. There are so many flavors of this nonsense. I was into Abraham and Seth (channeled demons), Oprah, law of attraction, Rudolph Steiner, yoga, I had tarot cards ("angel cards"), a pendulum, I was doing energy healing with a naturopath. As a nature lover and (now recovering)-feminist, appeals to the "divine feminine" and a greater connection to the natural world really attracted me.
Eight years later here I am, an Orthodox christian, and I had to burn all those books.
As a Catholic, I welcome you back to spiritual health in Orthodoxy. God has richly blessed you, and I pray will continue to do so.
When I was eight years old, I got up in the middle of the night to go to the bathroom. My father always left the hall light on for my sister and me. On this particular night, Satan/the devil/Evil incarnate—whatever you want to name the Presence—was waiting for me in the hall. I collapsed on the floor, curled up, shut my eyes and said the Lord’s Prayer over and over. Until Satan left the hall. I am now 78, and I have often puzzled “why then?” I do not have an answer. Many many years later, the Lord gave me, a lackadaisical Christian at the time, a task—and of course when God tells you to do something—via a theophany, no less—you do it. So I do wonder if “the incident at age 8” was the Devil trying to forestall my hearing God call my name those many years later. A few of my Christian friends also have had satanic encounters. To my mind, the most important thing about my encounter is that I knew the Lord’s Prayer by heart. My father and my Sunday School had taught me. My understanding and experience of God was not much compared to today. Pure faith via what we might see as a kind of indoctrination now was what I had at age 8. But that was enough. And my experience shows the importance of bringing children up in the faith, even though it is rudimentary rote learning. (And I might add that I have met a few people who lived in the Living Presence of God from their earliest years. I was not one.) Luther’s “Mighty Fortress” has always been my favorite hymn, especially these verses: “But still our ancient Foe, doth seek to work us woe. His craft and power are great, and armed with cruel hate, on earth is not his equal.”
I don’t feel able to go into details in a forum such as this. However, many years when I was in my early twenties I attended a small Anglican prayer group. One evening in which we discussed the topic of the occult I found myself recalling some frightening dreams I had had as child. As I did so I reacted in a fashion which took me completely by surprise. I suddenly found myself overwhelmed by sense of dread and fear. I was shaking and tearful. Other people, including 2 Anglican clerics, could see it and attempted to pray for me in a rather panicked fashion. The experience left me bewildered, and I was unable to make sense of it. I still cannot.
If there is a lesson it is that parents should pray frequently for their children. I think childhood is a period when we are more open to the numinous and this can be good or bad. I recall Rod describing one of his own children seeing an angel – I think it was in a church setting. Sleep is also a time of vulnerability. The experience I have briefly described happened 40 years ago. Though I can say some Christians in the recent past particularly those of a charismatic disposition acknowledged the demonic they didn’t really know how to handle it. Such things are maybe more common and real than we think. They can lie hidden unless something happens to reveal them. If they do manifest themselves we often resort to materialistic or psychological explanations in order to understand. We do need the gift of proper and effective discernment and so for the power of Christ to be made known.
How can we discern the seepage of the occult into our lives or our friends' lives. What is a wise way to respond? Is the Enneagram not good? (My own instinct is to reject it. I get confused like I can't wrap my mind around it.)
I thought of the Enneagram today too. And I have some of the same questions. But in my own life it has not felt like a doorway into the occult—just the opposite, actually. Very helpful with family and work relationships. And the deeper I got into it, the more it led me back to Christ and God’s world. It’s certainly not necessary and can clutter up your mind if you think about it too much (I’ve had to back off of it so I don’t categorize everyone I meet all the time) but I don’t think it’s harmful if it’s seen as a spiritual tool. Having used the ideas myself to very beneficial effect, it strikes me as mostly another way to talk about the spiritual disciplines and grow in them for people who didn’t encounter those ideas much in church. On the other side, it’s not helpful if used as a way to stereotype yourself or others and can be very harmful if talked about that way.
Thank you so much for this thoughtful response. I do think we are given a lot of freedom. It’s the stereotyping that bothers me and how it can be a rubric that comes between people and maybe stifle the Spirit’s insight into a person. I also think it can open it up too.
Yes, exactly. One of the most insightful things I ever heard anyone say about the enneagram (on a podcast, maybe?) was that it was originally meant to be a personal spiritual process for doing work on oneself, with God and perhaps a spiritual director, not as a way to think about other people at all. This is how it was the most helpful for me—I actually encountered it about the same time as I did material about the seven deadly sins, and the enneagram ideas were helpful in a similar way. As a fad, of course, the ideas didn’t really come across that way.
That makes good sense to use it as a personal spiritual process. I bet that work on the seven deadly sins was very helpful. I read Kathleen Norris’ book Acedia and Me and was taken by her saying the seven deadlies were originally thought of as the seven bad thoughts.
I have that book on my shelf! Perhaps it’s time to read it again. Acedia is the “bad thought” I struggle with the most, and I liked that book a lot back when I first read it. If you’re interested in this topic you might like Glittering Vices by Rebecca DeYoung—I thought that book was very helpful and well-written.
I will write the title down. My book pile is huge. . Thank you. Acedia is one I’ve wrestled against too.
No. The enneagram was invented by a Peruvian occultist who claimed the help of supernatural entities who weren't angels. Please see Fr. Mitch Pacwa's book Catholics and the New Age which I can't lay my hands on at the moment to give more details.
I respect your disagreement here and understand why you might not trust the enneagram. I have read other works, however, which describe a different provenance for the idea, so I’m not sure who is correct. Since I’ve already spent a lot of time with it, I can look at the fruits in my life, which are many and positive, healing of relationships and “bad thoughts” as Katie and I were discussing earlier in the thread. It helps you identify your fears and live in a way that doesn’t allow them to control you, so that you are able to grow spiritually past the armor you put on to defend yourself as a child. The armor is useful for a time, but it becomes confining over the course of your life. Engaged well and with God’s help, the work leads you toward wholeness (not typecasting) and is for the benefit of others as well as yourself.
That is very well-put. I’m completing my Enneagram coaching certification, and I really appreciate the way you explained it. Beth McCord has had a lot to say on this topic. She has a podcast (and company) called Your Enneagram Coach.
I have heard that it came from supernatural entities as well. Also heard it has origins in Islam. This is why I’m asking about it.
As I said, Fr. Pacwa was one of the first Americans to be trained in the Enneagram, in his seminary days. I trust his critique of it. If I had his book to hand, I could give you the particulars. It was supposed to be derived from ancient practices of the Sufis (Islamic mystics). But it was only invented in the 20th C. The Islamic angle is part of the con. The one bit of Islamic trimming is a reference to an entity called "the Green Kutub." "Kutub" means pillar in Arabic and green is the Muslim holy color.