One should reflect on God's mercy, in that He withholds such judgement for a very long time, and sends repeated warnings along so many mediums the price to be paid for such. His patience is long, but it is not infinite. Somewhere, a clock is ticking.
And this encapsulates the OT rather perfectly, as it illustrates the cycle of human nature: Israelites are saved by the Lord and are grateful for a time, but lapse into sin which disappoints God and ultimately leads to their downfall, upon which they cry out to the Lord and He rescues them.
Ah, Marcionism isn't all bad; none of the so-called heresies are. Almost all Catholics and Orthodox are at least a little Marcionist in practice. And in light of current and ongoing church scandals, perhaps consider Donatism, which posits that a corrupt priest auto-nullifies his own Holy Orders. Well, that sounds pretty good to me.
Years ago in the TAC comboxes a woman posted, "You can say ex opera operato until you're blue in the face, there is no way I'm taking Communion from a rapist."
Okay, but the whole point of rejecting the heresy was to reassure people that when they found out at a later date that the duly ordained priest who administered their sacrament was in fact a bad guy, that the sacrament was still valid.
We could square that by saying it's the faith of the believer that is the true authority behind the sacrament, not the status of the priest. The guy just does a job.
IтАЩm not a theologian and only play one on TV but I donтАЩt think thatтАЩs correct . A priest isnтАЩt just doing a job even if heтАЩs corrupt. ThatтАЩs part of the whole point of Graham GreeneтАЩs The Power and the Glory. The recipient of communion doesnтАЩt make the sacrament valid via his state of mind . The priest is a priest not some regular guy doing a job. He canтАЩt escape it . By the way , this is one of the reasons - what IтАЩm going to call classical Satanist not the modern humanists or the Anton Le Vey performers- treasured renegade priests.
Even in the ancient Church, Judaic ritualism was rejected. We read about the beginning of this in Acts when the Apostles rejected a requirement that Gentile converts must be circumcised. The first named heresy was "Judaizing"-- the notion that one must follow the Judaic Law in all things to be a Christian.
RightтАФso Marcionism ultimately devolves into a matter of hermeneutics. It's just a word for when people think you're not ignoring things politely enough.
No. It doesn't. It says that the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New. It's halfway to Manichaeism. Simone Weil was shocked by the Old Testament, and it was Eliot who pointed that she was flirting with Marcionism. But I don't think she ever got there.
ItтАЩs a fine line between the ontological claim of тАЬItтАЩs not the same deityтАЭ and the hermeneutic claim of тАЬItтАЩs still Him, but they got Him all wrongтАЭтАФand I would say in practice, a vanishing line. I prefer the approach of radical hermeneutic reappraisal, though, in line with St. Paul.
That said, there are vast swaths of the OT that are never mentioned across the liturgical year, and I would deem that a sort of practical Marcionism: тАЬYeahh, just donтАЩt worry about that part.тАЭ
I knew someone who was Jewish who never converted but attended Catholic mass for awhile because she rejected the Old Testament as harsh. She later went into Chabad . Go figure!
My understanding is that Hasidism is a charismatic movement that stresses the joyful aspects of Judaism and being a part of a community of (observant) Jews, or at the very least seeks to ensure that the joy of such is not forgotten.
And, God forgive me, but now IтАЩm thinking of KamalaтАЩs тАЬvibesтАЭ campaign. But, itтАЩs safe to assume the Hasidim arenтАЩt a superficial media creation.
Right, you said they weren't superficial. I was adding in about the votes, consistent with what you said.
And by the way, I really like it that you called Chassim "charismatic'. I'm a Catholic Charismatic who now works, as a volunteer, for Chabad, so I spend time with these good folks. You are so right to use that word - many commonalities.
There is a very large community of them in Rockland County, New York, where I grew up. Also, about 35 years ago I worked as a banquet waiter at a kosher catering hall. I did that for several years. Now, our clientele was overwhelmingly everyday Jews. But now and then we did some glatt kosher affairs for an orthodox community. The entire congregation of about 300 would show up for these parties. So I have some direct experience with them.
Also, for several years I purchased lecture tapes from тАЬThe Great CoursesтАЬ series, to listen to during my 45 minute commute to work at the time. Several of these sets were about Judaism, both the religion/culture and history. Hasidism came up in some of these lectures.
I know youтАЩre having a wonderful time interacting with the group youтАЩve found, and I think thatтАЩs great. Things are a little more complicated in the New York Metropolitan area, and the friction between these insular communities and the greater communities they live within canтАЩt be dismissed as mere тАЬantisemitism,тАЬ since youтАЩll hear criticisms come from everyday Jews as well.
IтАЩm going to allow though that the New York Metropolitan area is an overall contentious environment, and that itтАЩs fair to say this likely affects all parties involved.
Not quite but yes I think youтАЩre right on this . She was a strange one. Unfortunately I had a whole collection of work by her that I also lost in my Ida flood.
Yes, rejecting the OT is the early heresy of Marcionism. Darryl Cooper is a Marcionist.
One should reflect on God's mercy, in that He withholds such judgement for a very long time, and sends repeated warnings along so many mediums the price to be paid for such. His patience is long, but it is not infinite. Somewhere, a clock is ticking.
And this encapsulates the OT rather perfectly, as it illustrates the cycle of human nature: Israelites are saved by the Lord and are grateful for a time, but lapse into sin which disappoints God and ultimately leads to their downfall, upon which they cry out to the Lord and He rescues them.
Amen.
Ah, Marcionism isn't all bad; none of the so-called heresies are. Almost all Catholics and Orthodox are at least a little Marcionist in practice. And in light of current and ongoing church scandals, perhaps consider Donatism, which posits that a corrupt priest auto-nullifies his own Holy Orders. Well, that sounds pretty good to me.
Years ago in the TAC comboxes a woman posted, "You can say ex opera operato until you're blue in the face, there is no way I'm taking Communion from a rapist."
Amen.
Okay, but the whole point of rejecting the heresy was to reassure people that when they found out at a later date that the duly ordained priest who administered their sacrament was in fact a bad guy, that the sacrament was still valid.
I don't say I endorse what she wrote. But it was what a lot of us were feeling at time.
We could square that by saying it's the faith of the believer that is the true authority behind the sacrament, not the status of the priest. The guy just does a job.
IтАЩm not a theologian and only play one on TV but I donтАЩt think thatтАЩs correct . A priest isnтАЩt just doing a job even if heтАЩs corrupt. ThatтАЩs part of the whole point of Graham GreeneтАЩs The Power and the Glory. The recipient of communion doesnтАЩt make the sacrament valid via his state of mind . The priest is a priest not some regular guy doing a job. He canтАЩt escape it . By the way , this is one of the reasons - what IтАЩm going to call classical Satanist not the modern humanists or the Anton Le Vey performers- treasured renegade priests.
I think youтАЩre right, and I love that novel. I was just suggesting a possible conceptual innovation, not describing how it is now.
Even in the ancient Church, Judaic ritualism was rejected. We read about the beginning of this in Acts when the Apostles rejected a requirement that Gentile converts must be circumcised. The first named heresy was "Judaizing"-- the notion that one must follow the Judaic Law in all things to be a Christian.
RightтАФso Marcionism ultimately devolves into a matter of hermeneutics. It's just a word for when people think you're not ignoring things politely enough.
No. It doesn't. It says that the God of the Old Testament is not the God of the New. It's halfway to Manichaeism. Simone Weil was shocked by the Old Testament, and it was Eliot who pointed that she was flirting with Marcionism. But I don't think she ever got there.
ItтАЩs a fine line between the ontological claim of тАЬItтАЩs not the same deityтАЭ and the hermeneutic claim of тАЬItтАЩs still Him, but they got Him all wrongтАЭтАФand I would say in practice, a vanishing line. I prefer the approach of radical hermeneutic reappraisal, though, in line with St. Paul.
That said, there are vast swaths of the OT that are never mentioned across the liturgical year, and I would deem that a sort of practical Marcionism: тАЬYeahh, just donтАЩt worry about that part.тАЭ
I knew someone who was Jewish who never converted but attended Catholic mass for awhile because she rejected the Old Testament as harsh. She later went into Chabad . Go figure!
My understanding is that Hasidism is a charismatic movement that stresses the joyful aspects of Judaism and being a part of a community of (observant) Jews, or at the very least seeks to ensure that the joy of such is not forgotten.
And, God forgive me, but now IтАЩm thinking of KamalaтАЩs тАЬvibesтАЭ campaign. But, itтАЩs safe to assume the Hasidim arenтАЩt a superficial media creation.
ThatтАЩs safe to assume!
That's correct -- Chassidism was a reaction caused by a feeling of not having enough joy and spirit in mainstream Judaism.
Virtually all (voting) Orthodox Jews in the US (includes Hasidics) plan to vote Trump. (Not guessing, I know.)
Yes, I know. I was making a joke about тАЬjoy,тАЭ since thatтАЩs KamalaтАЩs schtick. IтАЩm not pretending Hasidim will vote for her.
Right, you said they weren't superficial. I was adding in about the votes, consistent with what you said.
And by the way, I really like it that you called Chassim "charismatic'. I'm a Catholic Charismatic who now works, as a volunteer, for Chabad, so I spend time with these good folks. You are so right to use that word - many commonalities.
There is a very large community of them in Rockland County, New York, where I grew up. Also, about 35 years ago I worked as a banquet waiter at a kosher catering hall. I did that for several years. Now, our clientele was overwhelmingly everyday Jews. But now and then we did some glatt kosher affairs for an orthodox community. The entire congregation of about 300 would show up for these parties. So I have some direct experience with them.
Also, for several years I purchased lecture tapes from тАЬThe Great CoursesтАЬ series, to listen to during my 45 minute commute to work at the time. Several of these sets were about Judaism, both the religion/culture and history. Hasidism came up in some of these lectures.
I know youтАЩre having a wonderful time interacting with the group youтАЩve found, and I think thatтАЩs great. Things are a little more complicated in the New York Metropolitan area, and the friction between these insular communities and the greater communities they live within canтАЩt be dismissed as mere тАЬantisemitism,тАЬ since youтАЩll hear criticisms come from everyday Jews as well.
IтАЩm going to allow though that the New York Metropolitan area is an overall contentious environment, and that itтАЩs fair to say this likely affects all parties involved.
Not quite but yes I think youтАЩre right on this . She was a strange one. Unfortunately I had a whole collection of work by her that I also lost in my Ida flood.
Theologians distinguish the ritual, moral and legal components of the OT. This seems fuzzy to me, but I haven't really read enough about it.