They are not the same God. This is blasphemous. The one true Triune God has nothing to do with the false god of Islam. God demands repentance and belief in His Son Jesus as Lord and Savior. He enters into a loving eternal relationship with us who believe but exacts eternal damnation on those who reject Him. Allah is not triune and does n…
They are not the same God. This is blasphemous. The one true Triune God has nothing to do with the false god of Islam. God demands repentance and belief in His Son Jesus as Lord and Savior. He enters into a loving eternal relationship with us who believe but exacts eternal damnation on those who reject Him. Allah is not triune and does not offer a free gift of salvation to all who believe. How can you say these two deities are the same? Islam is rooted in a theft and twisting of Christianity into a religion of works-based salvation. Satan is always trying to twist the gospel into being something that is works-based. I’ve long thought he tried to copy his success with Islam in the eastern world here in the west with the invention of Mormonism, but that he was not as successful. They both had leaders who claimed new revelation was given to them by angels, most likely Satan himself, in my opinion. But Mormonism was peaceful whereas Islam conquered by the sword.
Yet more reason for me to believe that women are some of the best evangelists. Thank you, Mary. Thank you for saying unbashfully things which must be said but which I can't be confident I know any Christian male besides me would say. ( I can be confident I would because I have. Provoking people to rage and disgust with me isn't temperamentally innate to me, but proclaiming Truth is exhilarating, isn't it? And there are enough of my own personal qualities which will provoke them to rage and disgust with me, anyway.
I'm especially grateful for your words about Mormonism. Haven't they gotten even more deceitful in recent years with their churchofjesuschrist.org ?
There are well meaning people associated with this Substack who list LDS along with genuinely Christian groups, and every time I see it, metaphorically I rend my garments.
Well, I couldn't say it (except maybe the part about some demoniac entity masquerading as Gabriel) because it's irrational and illogical. Yes, I'm the first to affirm that reason alone cannot lead us to Divine Truth. But we also cannot toss reason away in the ditch.
I can say simply that Islam (and Judaism, and the Mormons too) are in error, without positing that those errors somehow create other gods.
They don't create "other Gods," but in positing a God who is not the actual God, they are doing the work of demons, and according to the Bible, leading people to damnation. Remember the New Testament warning against "other Jesuses."
All this celebrating of converted pagans with moonbeams in their eyes is deeply charming, but if it weakens our commitment to propositional truth, it's diabolical.
I agree with this approach interpersonally (as I alluded to above).
In my interior spiritual life, though, I took a big step forward when I accepted Jesus as historical fact (at least I think it was a big step forward). This step has simultaneously made it harder and easier to accept my friends from other faiths. Harder in that I can't help but think "that's not true" when my LDS friend talks of Christ. Easier in that I can let it go and believe with certainty that God will guide them to the historical Jesus I now know.
There is too much in the Bible which militates against that idea. Consider only the verse which refers to people who didn't have a love for the truth, which prevented their being able to discern truth when they heard it preached. A person does have to want to know God before he can. The Bible is not complimentary to humanity: we've all gone "out of the way." There is no one who naturally wants to know truth.
I'm not a Calvinist because I cannot imagine anything less glorifying to God than determinism, but it's undeniable that The Holy Spirit must crack a person open before the person can want to know truth.
And of all those who offer up published or spoken interpretations of Scripture, from Pope to street corner exhorter... which of them truly "love the truth" and which are prevented from being able to discern truth when they heard it preached? Any flat assertion I've ever heard contains some all too human axiomatic assumptions. That doesn't lead me to be atheist or agnostic, God surely knows precisely what the truth is. But even the verse you refer to... albeit it is within the canon accepted by early church councils, did they get everything right, and what did the writer understand to be love for the truth?
Well, the Unitarians were originally Unitarian Baptists. I have an in-law whose daughter went on a pilgrimage with others from their Unitarian congregation to visit the areas of eastern Europe where their predecessors were martyred for the faith.
Wow! So, everyone who doesn’t believe the exact same things as you is diabolical and damned. This is the kind of perspective that leads to things like the Inquisition and religious wars. And a perspective that is greatly at odds with Jesus’s teachings.
Well, of course, that's nonsense, but nonsense which every faithful Christian has thrown at him. First, the exact same things? You really don't know Christianity at all. Our enemies like to point to the several big divisions among Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Why do these divisions exist? Because the people in each of them believe significantly different things about the practice of Christianity. But all of them believe that salvation is only through Jesus Christ. All of them believe in the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith.
For example, there is no such thing as a genuine Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, that He died for us, that He was raised from the dead, and that He is coming again. These things I've told you are not MY insistences. They're every Christian's insistences.
There is no getting around the exclusive claim of Christianity: all Christians believe that Jesus is the fullness of the revelation of God, God Incarnate, that He fulfilled the law of God on our behalf and died to make atonement for our sins, and that no one comes to the Father but by Him.
You say that what I've written is greatly at odds with Jesus’ teaching. Really? Find me a passage in the New Testament about Jesus' ministry in which He does not at some point proclaim Himself as the only begotten Son of God and the only way to the Father. It's also likely if you read through the particular event, you'll find that He will tell his enemies that they are dead in trespasses and sins. Himself and how others relate to Him is essentially all he does talk about! Jesus is either the most depraved narcissist in history or the only begotten Son of God.
There are many Christians who don’t believe all the things you’ve listed. But then, I’m sure you would just say that they aren’t really Christians then. So your circular logic supports your insistence that you’re right.
It’s funny to me, because Rod writes so much about the waning influence of Christianity in western society. And your writing and perspective is a perfect example of why so many people have fled the Christian church. But it sounds like you don’t want people like us anyway, so I guess you are fine with that.
All Christians believe the cardinal doctrines of the Faith. Briefly, here they are.
1. God is a Trinity, comprising Three co - equal Persons, each God.
2. The second Person of the Godhead became Incarnate. That is Jesus. The Holy Spirit generated Him in the womb of a virgin. Jesus is fully God but also fully human. In His humanity, He differs from the rest of us only in this respect: He doesn't have a sinful nature.
3. He came into the world to teach, to elucidate the moral law and to show us the extent of its measure and how drastically short we fall of its demand for perfection. Yet He himself kept the moral law perfectly, and He did this on our behalf.
4. He died as atonement for our sins and was raised from the dead. His perfect life and sacrificial death make it possible for God to forgive us for all of our sins and to generate new life within us, the true life, the life which The Holy Spirit alone can give.
5. Christ will return eventually. Salvation is assured to all of those who trust in Jesus. Damnation is the fate of those who insist on remaining His enemies. We all will be resurrected, those who have believed in Jesus in bodies akin to His. I'm not sure that anyone has ever tried to delineate what the resurrection of the damned will be like. It's too depressing to contemplate, for one thing.
6. The Devil and his angels, the demons, will be cast into The Lake of Fire, along with all unredeemed human beings. God will make a new Heavens and a new Earth. Righteousness, love, joy, and peace will be the undying possession of the redeemed, who will see God face to face.
This isn't theologically flawless. Even if I hadn't had to compress some things for the sake of minimizing length, it still wouldn't be flawless. But I think it's a layman's passable explanation of what the cardinal doctrines of the Faith are. Contrary to what you say, there are no faithful Christians who don't believe them. There are Christians who slip into heresy. They are not faithful Christians. And there are apostates. There is disagreement among Christians whether any true Christian can become apostates, but it's clear that apostates are people who have left the Faith they once were thought to have.
Your little girl - with - hurt feelings act doesn't sell. The last thing you want is Jesus Christ. I do hope you will change your mind.
You misunderstood me if you think my feelings are hurt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just commenting on the irony that Rod is always talking about how Christianity is dying out, and yet readers of his like you are doing your best to drive people away.
There is no question that nothing drives people away like truth. And no, I didn't think your feelings were hurt. I was playing according to your disingenuousness in that sentence.
What do you think I should do to avoid driving people away? I would like to know.
Human errors of theology do not create alternate gods! That's modernist subjectivism, raised to a high power.
Islam is (I believe) in severe error by not recognizing Jesus as God incarnate and Messiah. And also in not recognizing the Holy Trinity. But those are the same exact errors the Jews make too.
Are the Jews worshiping a "different God". You cannot logically maintain the one without also affirming the other.
"Human errors of theology do not create alternate gods!"
I'd add that the muslims 100% believe Allah is the same God of Abraham and Christ that Christians and Jews worship. This is a helpful thing to hold on to when one tries to understand their faith.
What I am saying is if someone insists the Muslims worship a different God because of their theological errors, then the Jews too must worship a different God because they have the same errors.
Thanks - that’s more clear. I agree with you. And highlight the absurdity of that perspsective, since Jesus worshipped the Jewish God, and his teaching were all about how to be closer to that God.
They are not the same God. This is blasphemous. The one true Triune God has nothing to do with the false god of Islam. God demands repentance and belief in His Son Jesus as Lord and Savior. He enters into a loving eternal relationship with us who believe but exacts eternal damnation on those who reject Him. Allah is not triune and does not offer a free gift of salvation to all who believe. How can you say these two deities are the same? Islam is rooted in a theft and twisting of Christianity into a religion of works-based salvation. Satan is always trying to twist the gospel into being something that is works-based. I’ve long thought he tried to copy his success with Islam in the eastern world here in the west with the invention of Mormonism, but that he was not as successful. They both had leaders who claimed new revelation was given to them by angels, most likely Satan himself, in my opinion. But Mormonism was peaceful whereas Islam conquered by the sword.
Yet more reason for me to believe that women are some of the best evangelists. Thank you, Mary. Thank you for saying unbashfully things which must be said but which I can't be confident I know any Christian male besides me would say. ( I can be confident I would because I have. Provoking people to rage and disgust with me isn't temperamentally innate to me, but proclaiming Truth is exhilarating, isn't it? And there are enough of my own personal qualities which will provoke them to rage and disgust with me, anyway.
I'm especially grateful for your words about Mormonism. Haven't they gotten even more deceitful in recent years with their churchofjesuschrist.org ?
There are well meaning people associated with this Substack who list LDS along with genuinely Christian groups, and every time I see it, metaphorically I rend my garments.
Well, I couldn't say it (except maybe the part about some demoniac entity masquerading as Gabriel) because it's irrational and illogical. Yes, I'm the first to affirm that reason alone cannot lead us to Divine Truth. But we also cannot toss reason away in the ditch.
I can say simply that Islam (and Judaism, and the Mormons too) are in error, without positing that those errors somehow create other gods.
They don't create "other Gods," but in positing a God who is not the actual God, they are doing the work of demons, and according to the Bible, leading people to damnation. Remember the New Testament warning against "other Jesuses."
All this celebrating of converted pagans with moonbeams in their eyes is deeply charming, but if it weakens our commitment to propositional truth, it's diabolical.
Its much easier for me to believe that humans are all stumbling around in the dark trying to find the truth, and all of us coming up short.
I agree with this approach interpersonally (as I alluded to above).
In my interior spiritual life, though, I took a big step forward when I accepted Jesus as historical fact (at least I think it was a big step forward). This step has simultaneously made it harder and easier to accept my friends from other faiths. Harder in that I can't help but think "that's not true" when my LDS friend talks of Christ. Easier in that I can let it go and believe with certainty that God will guide them to the historical Jesus I now know.
I think both of your responses are wise.
There is too much in the Bible which militates against that idea. Consider only the verse which refers to people who didn't have a love for the truth, which prevented their being able to discern truth when they heard it preached. A person does have to want to know God before he can. The Bible is not complimentary to humanity: we've all gone "out of the way." There is no one who naturally wants to know truth.
I'm not a Calvinist because I cannot imagine anything less glorifying to God than determinism, but it's undeniable that The Holy Spirit must crack a person open before the person can want to know truth.
And of all those who offer up published or spoken interpretations of Scripture, from Pope to street corner exhorter... which of them truly "love the truth" and which are prevented from being able to discern truth when they heard it preached? Any flat assertion I've ever heard contains some all too human axiomatic assumptions. That doesn't lead me to be atheist or agnostic, God surely knows precisely what the truth is. But even the verse you refer to... albeit it is within the canon accepted by early church councils, did they get everything right, and what did the writer understand to be love for the truth?
Charlie, The Holy Spirit protects the truth. All Christians have the cardinal doctrines in common.
Well, the Unitarians were originally Unitarian Baptists. I have an in-law whose daughter went on a pilgrimage with others from their Unitarian congregation to visit the areas of eastern Europe where their predecessors were martyred for the faith.
Wow! So, everyone who doesn’t believe the exact same things as you is diabolical and damned. This is the kind of perspective that leads to things like the Inquisition and religious wars. And a perspective that is greatly at odds with Jesus’s teachings.
Well, of course, that's nonsense, but nonsense which every faithful Christian has thrown at him. First, the exact same things? You really don't know Christianity at all. Our enemies like to point to the several big divisions among Christians, Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant. Why do these divisions exist? Because the people in each of them believe significantly different things about the practice of Christianity. But all of them believe that salvation is only through Jesus Christ. All of them believe in the cardinal doctrines of the Christian faith.
For example, there is no such thing as a genuine Christian who doesn't believe that Jesus was born of a virgin, that He died for us, that He was raised from the dead, and that He is coming again. These things I've told you are not MY insistences. They're every Christian's insistences.
There is no getting around the exclusive claim of Christianity: all Christians believe that Jesus is the fullness of the revelation of God, God Incarnate, that He fulfilled the law of God on our behalf and died to make atonement for our sins, and that no one comes to the Father but by Him.
You say that what I've written is greatly at odds with Jesus’ teaching. Really? Find me a passage in the New Testament about Jesus' ministry in which He does not at some point proclaim Himself as the only begotten Son of God and the only way to the Father. It's also likely if you read through the particular event, you'll find that He will tell his enemies that they are dead in trespasses and sins. Himself and how others relate to Him is essentially all he does talk about! Jesus is either the most depraved narcissist in history or the only begotten Son of God.
There are many Christians who don’t believe all the things you’ve listed. But then, I’m sure you would just say that they aren’t really Christians then. So your circular logic supports your insistence that you’re right.
It’s funny to me, because Rod writes so much about the waning influence of Christianity in western society. And your writing and perspective is a perfect example of why so many people have fled the Christian church. But it sounds like you don’t want people like us anyway, so I guess you are fine with that.
All Christians believe the cardinal doctrines of the Faith. Briefly, here they are.
1. God is a Trinity, comprising Three co - equal Persons, each God.
2. The second Person of the Godhead became Incarnate. That is Jesus. The Holy Spirit generated Him in the womb of a virgin. Jesus is fully God but also fully human. In His humanity, He differs from the rest of us only in this respect: He doesn't have a sinful nature.
3. He came into the world to teach, to elucidate the moral law and to show us the extent of its measure and how drastically short we fall of its demand for perfection. Yet He himself kept the moral law perfectly, and He did this on our behalf.
4. He died as atonement for our sins and was raised from the dead. His perfect life and sacrificial death make it possible for God to forgive us for all of our sins and to generate new life within us, the true life, the life which The Holy Spirit alone can give.
5. Christ will return eventually. Salvation is assured to all of those who trust in Jesus. Damnation is the fate of those who insist on remaining His enemies. We all will be resurrected, those who have believed in Jesus in bodies akin to His. I'm not sure that anyone has ever tried to delineate what the resurrection of the damned will be like. It's too depressing to contemplate, for one thing.
6. The Devil and his angels, the demons, will be cast into The Lake of Fire, along with all unredeemed human beings. God will make a new Heavens and a new Earth. Righteousness, love, joy, and peace will be the undying possession of the redeemed, who will see God face to face.
This isn't theologically flawless. Even if I hadn't had to compress some things for the sake of minimizing length, it still wouldn't be flawless. But I think it's a layman's passable explanation of what the cardinal doctrines of the Faith are. Contrary to what you say, there are no faithful Christians who don't believe them. There are Christians who slip into heresy. They are not faithful Christians. And there are apostates. There is disagreement among Christians whether any true Christian can become apostates, but it's clear that apostates are people who have left the Faith they once were thought to have.
Your little girl - with - hurt feelings act doesn't sell. The last thing you want is Jesus Christ. I do hope you will change your mind.
Like I said, circular logic.
You misunderstood me if you think my feelings are hurt. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just commenting on the irony that Rod is always talking about how Christianity is dying out, and yet readers of his like you are doing your best to drive people away.
There is no question that nothing drives people away like truth. And no, I didn't think your feelings were hurt. I was playing according to your disingenuousness in that sentence.
What do you think I should do to avoid driving people away? I would like to know.
I think Lewis Carrol answered that question the best in “An Aged, Aged Man”:
I tell thee everything I can;
There's little to relate.
I saw an aged aged man,
A-sitting on a gate.
"Who are you, aged man?" I said,
"And how is it you live?"
And his answer trickled through my head
Like water through a sieve.
He said, "I look for butterflies
That sleep among the wheat:
I make them into mutton-pies,
And sell them in the street.
I sell them unto men," he said,
"Who sail on stormy seas;
And that's the way I get my bread—
A trifle; if you please."
But I was thinking of a plan
To dye one's whiskers green,
And always use so large a fan
That they could not be seen.
So, having no reply to give
To what the old man said,
I cried, "Come, tell me how you live!"
And thumped him on the head.
His accents mild took up the tale:
He said, "I go my ways,
And when I find a mountain-rill,
I set it in a blaze;
And thence they make a stuff they call
Rowland's Macassar-Oil—
Yet twopence-halfpenny is all
They give me for my toil."
But I was thinking of a way
To feed oneself on batter,
And so go on from day to day
Getting a little fatter.
I shook him well from side to side,
Until his face was blue:
"Come, tell me how you live," I cried,
"And what it is you do!"
Human errors of theology do not create alternate gods! That's modernist subjectivism, raised to a high power.
Islam is (I believe) in severe error by not recognizing Jesus as God incarnate and Messiah. And also in not recognizing the Holy Trinity. But those are the same exact errors the Jews make too.
Are the Jews worshiping a "different God". You cannot logically maintain the one without also affirming the other.
I think this is one of your smarter comments:
"Human errors of theology do not create alternate gods!"
I'd add that the muslims 100% believe Allah is the same God of Abraham and Christ that Christians and Jews worship. This is a helpful thing to hold on to when one tries to understand their faith.
I’m not clear on what you are saying. Are you saying Jews worship a different God than Christians?
I think Jesus might take issue with that, being Jewish and all.
What I am saying is if someone insists the Muslims worship a different God because of their theological errors, then the Jews too must worship a different God because they have the same errors.
Thanks - that’s more clear. I agree with you. And highlight the absurdity of that perspsective, since Jesus worshipped the Jewish God, and his teaching were all about how to be closer to that God.
This is the kind of thing that gives Christianity a bad name and drives so many people from the church.