I also have no opinion, but I'd add that *demons* seems to be going a little far. I think of djinni as like desert faerie; there's a range of spiritual entities known to be not evil per se, but volatile and michievious.
I also have no opinion, but I'd add that *demons* seems to be going a little far. I think of djinni as like desert faerie; there's a range of spiritual entities known to be not evil per se, but volatile and michievious.
I've agreed with you before as to the possibility of spiritual beings who are neither of Heaven nor Hell. But the fruit of Gabriel's "revelation" seems to be well beyond the merely mischievous. IMO, it has a scent of Hell about it.
The fruit, yesтАФbut humans could run with a corrupted thing all on their own. I was just thinking more about the descriptions of Muhammed's interactions with this entity, which seem to reflect a sort of cajoling and deal-making and harassment. Not the outright malevolence of demons, as the Bible makes clear.
The scent of hell about it? Should I tell that to my friends on the chess team at the Salam School? How about my friends at the local middle eastern restaurant? If you talk like that, you might as well be talking about segregating different religious communities, because anyone would be insulted to hear their faith described that way. I could recite Calvin on the Virgin Mary to my Catholic friends, but I don't, partly because I don't believe it, and partly because it would be rude and lose me some friends. So where do you draw the line on something like that?
I am not implying that individual Muslims are any more wicked than individual Christians. At the civilizational level however how much blood has been shed by conflict between Islam and Christendom? It's not like we have to go back to the Middle Ages to find examples of that sort of thing. And while Christendom has unclean hands too much of the recent bloodshed is due. directly and indirectly, to Islamic terrorism (and of course the response to it).
A lot to unpack there, but I will try to keep it brief. Christianity began as a disadvantaged sect in a mighty empire, while Islam began among a collection of tribes used to raiding each other's caravans because that's what life was all about. Having been forbidden to slay each other as brother Muslims, rather than becoming vegan pacifists, they turned their united forces outward, finding the badly weakened Byzantine and Sassanid empires easy prey. At first the point was not to convert everyone -- Islam was the religion of the Arabs. They simply took over the empires they had conquered, and had the same civil service collect taxes for them. They found Damascus much more comfortable than Mecca, and the Arabian peninsula became a backwater. Christianity got its taste of state power after Constantine, and was easily dragged into the joys of war and conquest. Anytime warriors nominally espousing either faith have taken up the sword, it has been bloody.
I don;t dusagree wuith any of this. But my original point is that the Hell delights in setting people violent against each other and religion has been a fruitful field for that devoir.
I find myself thinking about this issue quite a lot as I have several muslim friends who are devout and whom I respect tremendously--one in particular. We talk about Islam and Catholicism a lot (as he or I understand them so hardly authoritative). It goes really well as we're both respectful, curious, and non-confrontational. I really don't think it is my role to undermine or critique his faith. It works very well for him and is a deep part of his culture and family. And the results of his faith, as I see them, are good.
The guy who owns the corner store is named Haaji, whom I describe as My Favorite Muslim (TM). He sells me beer. And he asked me to pray for him when he had heart surgery, and I didnтАЩt make a fuss about which deity.
I recently had surgery and my Muslim friend offered prayers. I was touched that he cared for me that much. It never even crossed my mind who might receive those prayers. The Jesus I'm learning about would be touched by my friend's love, too, and would gladly watch over me at his behest.
Sometimes I find it easier to believe that a Lion recovered life when the stone table cracked than that a man walked out of a tomb. Be that as it may, when Aslan said any devotion sincerely given to Tash was really given to me, not because we are the same, but because we are opposites, seems to clear up a good deal.
I also have no opinion, but I'd add that *demons* seems to be going a little far. I think of djinni as like desert faerie; there's a range of spiritual entities known to be not evil per se, but volatile and michievious.
I've agreed with you before as to the possibility of spiritual beings who are neither of Heaven nor Hell. But the fruit of Gabriel's "revelation" seems to be well beyond the merely mischievous. IMO, it has a scent of Hell about it.
The fruit, yesтАФbut humans could run with a corrupted thing all on their own. I was just thinking more about the descriptions of Muhammed's interactions with this entity, which seem to reflect a sort of cajoling and deal-making and harassment. Not the outright malevolence of demons, as the Bible makes clear.
The scent of hell about it? Should I tell that to my friends on the chess team at the Salam School? How about my friends at the local middle eastern restaurant? If you talk like that, you might as well be talking about segregating different religious communities, because anyone would be insulted to hear their faith described that way. I could recite Calvin on the Virgin Mary to my Catholic friends, but I don't, partly because I don't believe it, and partly because it would be rude and lose me some friends. So where do you draw the line on something like that?
I am not implying that individual Muslims are any more wicked than individual Christians. At the civilizational level however how much blood has been shed by conflict between Islam and Christendom? It's not like we have to go back to the Middle Ages to find examples of that sort of thing. And while Christendom has unclean hands too much of the recent bloodshed is due. directly and indirectly, to Islamic terrorism (and of course the response to it).
A lot to unpack there, but I will try to keep it brief. Christianity began as a disadvantaged sect in a mighty empire, while Islam began among a collection of tribes used to raiding each other's caravans because that's what life was all about. Having been forbidden to slay each other as brother Muslims, rather than becoming vegan pacifists, they turned their united forces outward, finding the badly weakened Byzantine and Sassanid empires easy prey. At first the point was not to convert everyone -- Islam was the religion of the Arabs. They simply took over the empires they had conquered, and had the same civil service collect taxes for them. They found Damascus much more comfortable than Mecca, and the Arabian peninsula became a backwater. Christianity got its taste of state power after Constantine, and was easily dragged into the joys of war and conquest. Anytime warriors nominally espousing either faith have taken up the sword, it has been bloody.
I don;t dusagree wuith any of this. But my original point is that the Hell delights in setting people violent against each other and religion has been a fruitful field for that devoir.
Or, as C.S. Lewis put it in The Screwtape Letters, one of the most helpful allies of Our Father Below has been The Church.
"The road to Hell is paved with the skulls of bishops"
Great comment Charlie.
I find myself thinking about this issue quite a lot as I have several muslim friends who are devout and whom I respect tremendously--one in particular. We talk about Islam and Catholicism a lot (as he or I understand them so hardly authoritative). It goes really well as we're both respectful, curious, and non-confrontational. I really don't think it is my role to undermine or critique his faith. It works very well for him and is a deep part of his culture and family. And the results of his faith, as I see them, are good.
The guy who owns the corner store is named Haaji, whom I describe as My Favorite Muslim (TM). He sells me beer. And he asked me to pray for him when he had heart surgery, and I didnтАЩt make a fuss about which deity.
I recently had surgery and my Muslim friend offered prayers. I was touched that he cared for me that much. It never even crossed my mind who might receive those prayers. The Jesus I'm learning about would be touched by my friend's love, too, and would gladly watch over me at his behest.
YouтАЩre rightтАФthatтАЩs how He is.
Sometimes I find it easier to believe that a Lion recovered life when the stone table cracked than that a man walked out of a tomb. Be that as it may, when Aslan said any devotion sincerely given to Tash was really given to me, not because we are the same, but because we are opposites, seems to clear up a good deal.