"Created" does not make it "natural." "Created" just means that. "Natural" means that it exists in the natural realm, bound by its laws. The Bible makes it clear there is a while aspect of creation that does not exist in the world of particles, forces and natural laws, but at the same time, can interact with said realm while at the same …
"Created" does not make it "natural." "Created" just means that. "Natural" means that it exists in the natural realm, bound by its laws. The Bible makes it clear there is a while aspect of creation that does not exist in the world of particles, forces and natural laws, but at the same time, can interact with said realm while at the same time having a whole realm and set of abilities and influences all their own. Your idea that "everything created is natural and subject to nature and the physical realm" is your thing. It has no Biblical backing.
Angels and demons are governed by natural laws peculiar to their nature. Just as we are. And if they can interact with the material world than they must have some connection to those laws of nature too. E.g., they cannot create matter/energy ex nihilo or reverse entropy. And also are subject ti the flow of Time.
"if they can interact with the material law, they must have some connection to those laws of nature, too," that is your leap That is not backed by Scripture. "They are subject to the flow of time," no, they are not. They are immortal, for one. Do not age. Time and space limitations do not limit them like they do us. Again, your supposition is not supported by Biblical evidence.
Only God exists transcendently, without reference to Time- since He of course created Time. All created things have some relationship with Time, if perhaps one different from ours.
Scripture has nothing to do with these matters- the Bible is the record and instruction of our salvation, not the book of all answers to all things.
At this point we are both nitpicking . How about we both agree that it is folly of no little magnitude to mess around with Hell in any way for any purpose, and agree to disagree about metaphysics and semantics?
Scripture is ALL we have on these matters. Anything else is what you are pulling out of your backside. And that is worth nothing in this. YOu have no knowledge or insght other than what is Biblically available. Same as all of us.
We do not get to just make up stuff about that realm that satisfies our whatevers. It is either in the Bible or YOU DO NOT KNOW.
I disagree that the Bible is the sole source of all knowledge, even in regards to theology and certainly not in regards to metaphysics which is what we are talking about here.
I do. Anything else is either you making it up or you messing with the occult.
And yes, the Bible is the sole source, and is to be what everything else is checked against. It is what it says and why we have it, why it was given to us in the first place. YOu thinking you can blaze your own trail is pride and dabbling in dangerous territory.
You are a Sola Scriptura Christian. Many of us are not-- and ours is the older tradition. I do not imply any bashing of you for that, but you should realize this (the finding of metaphysical knowledge via other sources) is not just some idiosyncrasy of mine, but a very old and broad Christian endeavor.
Who has the older tradition does not matter at all to me. My first check is God's Word, not anyone's "tradition." How does the 'tradition" measure against God's Word? If they do not jibe, it is the tradition that goes.
But at this point you are just arguing for the sake of being disputatious. I'm not going to cut off dialogue with you completely, but this nitpickery and hair-splittery has become entirely too much and I will engage in it no more.
No, it is not mere tradition. It is a movement of the Holy Spirit. Which is why it has the power it has. It is the Living Word of God. Which is why God gives it the authority it has and no one has the authority to override it. "Church tradition," is the work of humans. Can it be useful? Sure. But it absolutely has to be checked against God's Word.
BTW, I do not claim any knowledge or authority of Orthodox tradition, but this notion of demons, angels and the spirit world as just being "nature", I've seen NO CHRISTIANS, of any type making this claim. So this strikes me as being less about some "tradition" and more about your own ideas. Specifically, trying to square up the supernatural with your ideas of "science." Which is nonsense. I know this because at one time, a very long time ago, as a foolish youth, I tried to do the same thing, before realizng they are not and it was silly to try. They are what they are. God has presented us mysteries, and are not in many cases meant to be unraveled while we are here. We see through a glass darkly until such time as we go there and much more is revealed to us, when we are in a position where it will truly be useful.
I feel obliged to point out that from the Catholic and Orthodox standpoint, you would be the one pridefully blazing your own trail by insisting that your own reading of the Bible—just you and your own two eyes, independent from Tradition—is the best or correct reading. The Catholic and Orthodox view is that the Holy Ghost guides and informs the Tradition; that the Bible itself is an artifact created by the Church as part of the broader Tradition; and that it is idolatrous to call the Bible the "Word of God", because only Jesus Christ Himself—the Logos—is the Word of God.
I know that your view is very different, and I'm not going to argue with you about it. I just wanted to list this point of fact about what it is that other types of Christians think.
And I would tell you that I'm not interested in Catholic or Orthodox standpoints, if it strays from God's word or cannot be reinforced. Church tradition or views of priests are interesting, but it must answer to God's Word. It is why we have it. As there is no Biblical verse backing up your view that the layman needs his reading filtered through a priesthood. The trend has been to make the Bible available to the layman, not restrict it from him. This was a move of the Holy Spirit. Because no mere book would reach and change men's hearts. It is living and the Holy Spirit resides there. Verses call ALL BELIEVERS to read it and commit it to their hearts. This would not be the case, none of it, if it was to be restricted to dissemination by elders.
The Bible also is referred to as the "Word of God" in its own pages.
Catholics and Orthodox need to get used to Protestants being out of there. It is ok for you to contest my views, that's fine. But I can tell you, I'm not at all interested in what your elders have to say. I'm interested in what God's Word says. For that is why the Lord gave it to us. ALL of us, elders, pastors, priests, layman, have to check utterances and views against that. And guess what? If the Bible says one thing and some clergyman says another, that clergyman is wrong.
"Created" does not make it "natural." "Created" just means that. "Natural" means that it exists in the natural realm, bound by its laws. The Bible makes it clear there is a while aspect of creation that does not exist in the world of particles, forces and natural laws, but at the same time, can interact with said realm while at the same time having a whole realm and set of abilities and influences all their own. Your idea that "everything created is natural and subject to nature and the physical realm" is your thing. It has no Biblical backing.
Angels and demons are governed by natural laws peculiar to their nature. Just as we are. And if they can interact with the material world than they must have some connection to those laws of nature too. E.g., they cannot create matter/energy ex nihilo or reverse entropy. And also are subject ti the flow of Time.
"if they can interact with the material law, they must have some connection to those laws of nature, too," that is your leap That is not backed by Scripture. "They are subject to the flow of time," no, they are not. They are immortal, for one. Do not age. Time and space limitations do not limit them like they do us. Again, your supposition is not supported by Biblical evidence.
Only God exists transcendently, without reference to Time- since He of course created Time. All created things have some relationship with Time, if perhaps one different from ours.
Scripture has nothing to do with these matters- the Bible is the record and instruction of our salvation, not the book of all answers to all things.
At this point we are both nitpicking . How about we both agree that it is folly of no little magnitude to mess around with Hell in any way for any purpose, and agree to disagree about metaphysics and semantics?
Scripture is ALL we have on these matters. Anything else is what you are pulling out of your backside. And that is worth nothing in this. YOu have no knowledge or insght other than what is Biblically available. Same as all of us.
We do not get to just make up stuff about that realm that satisfies our whatevers. It is either in the Bible or YOU DO NOT KNOW.
I disagree that the Bible is the sole source of all knowledge, even in regards to theology and certainly not in regards to metaphysics which is what we are talking about here.
I do. Anything else is either you making it up or you messing with the occult.
And yes, the Bible is the sole source, and is to be what everything else is checked against. It is what it says and why we have it, why it was given to us in the first place. YOu thinking you can blaze your own trail is pride and dabbling in dangerous territory.
You are a Sola Scriptura Christian. Many of us are not-- and ours is the older tradition. I do not imply any bashing of you for that, but you should realize this (the finding of metaphysical knowledge via other sources) is not just some idiosyncrasy of mine, but a very old and broad Christian endeavor.
Who has the older tradition does not matter at all to me. My first check is God's Word, not anyone's "tradition." How does the 'tradition" measure against God's Word? If they do not jibe, it is the tradition that goes.
God's word is itself Tradition.
But at this point you are just arguing for the sake of being disputatious. I'm not going to cut off dialogue with you completely, but this nitpickery and hair-splittery has become entirely too much and I will engage in it no more.
No, it is not mere tradition. It is a movement of the Holy Spirit. Which is why it has the power it has. It is the Living Word of God. Which is why God gives it the authority it has and no one has the authority to override it. "Church tradition," is the work of humans. Can it be useful? Sure. But it absolutely has to be checked against God's Word.
BTW, I do not claim any knowledge or authority of Orthodox tradition, but this notion of demons, angels and the spirit world as just being "nature", I've seen NO CHRISTIANS, of any type making this claim. So this strikes me as being less about some "tradition" and more about your own ideas. Specifically, trying to square up the supernatural with your ideas of "science." Which is nonsense. I know this because at one time, a very long time ago, as a foolish youth, I tried to do the same thing, before realizng they are not and it was silly to try. They are what they are. God has presented us mysteries, and are not in many cases meant to be unraveled while we are here. We see through a glass darkly until such time as we go there and much more is revealed to us, when we are in a position where it will truly be useful.
I feel obliged to point out that from the Catholic and Orthodox standpoint, you would be the one pridefully blazing your own trail by insisting that your own reading of the Bible—just you and your own two eyes, independent from Tradition—is the best or correct reading. The Catholic and Orthodox view is that the Holy Ghost guides and informs the Tradition; that the Bible itself is an artifact created by the Church as part of the broader Tradition; and that it is idolatrous to call the Bible the "Word of God", because only Jesus Christ Himself—the Logos—is the Word of God.
I know that your view is very different, and I'm not going to argue with you about it. I just wanted to list this point of fact about what it is that other types of Christians think.
And I would tell you that I'm not interested in Catholic or Orthodox standpoints, if it strays from God's word or cannot be reinforced. Church tradition or views of priests are interesting, but it must answer to God's Word. It is why we have it. As there is no Biblical verse backing up your view that the layman needs his reading filtered through a priesthood. The trend has been to make the Bible available to the layman, not restrict it from him. This was a move of the Holy Spirit. Because no mere book would reach and change men's hearts. It is living and the Holy Spirit resides there. Verses call ALL BELIEVERS to read it and commit it to their hearts. This would not be the case, none of it, if it was to be restricted to dissemination by elders.
The Bible also is referred to as the "Word of God" in its own pages.
Catholics and Orthodox need to get used to Protestants being out of there. It is ok for you to contest my views, that's fine. But I can tell you, I'm not at all interested in what your elders have to say. I'm interested in what God's Word says. For that is why the Lord gave it to us. ALL of us, elders, pastors, priests, layman, have to check utterances and views against that. And guess what? If the Bible says one thing and some clergyman says another, that clergyman is wrong.
Feel as you will. As I said, there is no argument to be had on this matter.
I do not see why there should be. We are all Christians here and seek to above all point the way to Christ.
Right?