To see only the evil that Hamas did without seeing anything wrong with what Israel has done for decades, or worse, to justify it, as many in the West do, is basically saying Israeli lives matter more than Palestinian ones.
We have two ethnic groups who have been fighting over the same piece of land since 1948. This is not a question of civilization versus barbarity. Both sides have committed plenty of war crimes over the years. Israel has been more strategic about theirs, while too many Palestinians have chosen to act in ways that are stupid, short-sighted, and do their cause no good.
To ask what might have pushed someone to commit a particular atrocity does not mean one is excusing the atrocity. But consider that many in Israel have wanted to clear out Gaza entirely for a while, and now they have a reason to.
I don't buy into these conspiracy theories myself, but there's definitely a narrative among Muslims that the Israelis are lying about the worst atrocities, and those photos and videos are faked. Or that Netanyahu and Hamas were working together. (They have in the past.) I can't read anyone's mind, but I suspect at least some of the people tearing down hostage posters think they are combating fake news.
Maybe? Honestly, at this point only those who don't know much about any of it are still persuadable. The two sides are even living in parallel information worlds, as Rod wrote about in an earlier piece.
If you only get your news from TikTok you're seeing an overwhelmingly pro-Palestine view. The mainstream media in the West, meanwhile, is very pro-Israel. Meanwhile lot of people worldwide just rely on WhatsApp and Telegram forwards. There are barely even any shared facts and there's not enough mutual trust to create any. I imagine this is what it was like in the medieval era, where literacy was low and everyone got their news from the town crier and people they knew.
My take would be that, without theological justification otherwise, it's blindingly obvious that the Palestinians are in the right.
However (and it's a big "However"), the Palestinians have picked a particularly nasty ideological vehicle for their just aspirations. Obviously, I disapprove of Islam on a theological level, but, leaving that aside, I think the jury is out on the degree to which Islam can be tolerant, and function on a level playing field in a multireligious society. I hope it can, because I would prefer to see it as just a false religion, like Mormonism, which Christians should argue against, but beside which they can live safely. However, that is somewhat academic, as, in the world today, it is indisputable that Islam is more violent and intolerant than Christianity (unless one considers, say, the USA to have religious motivations for its foreign policy, which is arguable but far from certain). In addition, a sizable minority of Palestinians have latched onto an unusually nasty interpretation of Islam, represented by Hamas.
Even leaving aside their ideology, the recent attacks were largely sadistic. They weren't even, for example, random bombing of a residential area to demoralise the population, in that some of those involved seem to have truly bestial and sexually perverted motives.
After that, I sympathise with the Israeli public to want to take bloody vengeance. However, that does not mean that US and European governments should encourage that. The USA has leverage, as it provides a huge amount of aid to Israel.
Leaving aside the moral issues, in terms of what is to be done, I find it difficult to be other than deeply pessimistic. I think one side or the other, probably the Palestinians, is going to end up getting killed or expelled. Another possibility is a nuclear war, perhaps between Israel and Iran, or perhaps the Samson Option by Israel.
If I try to think of optimistic scenarios, obviously mass (even much less than 100%) conversion of both sides to Christianity would resolve the problem overnight. It's actually quite bizarre how spiritual good coincides with geopolitical and humanitarian benefit in this particular case.
The one-state option, without a massive moral realignment, which is unlikely without religious conversion, looks like a non-starter. If I could dream, I'd want a holy Holy Land, a sort of spiritual homeland for the soul, as a pilgrimage destination, and world centre for religious studies and spiritual arts, showcasing the best of the three religious traditions, and showing that devout religion can be tolerant and humane.
I think the two-state option would still be workable, but would require Israel withdrawing all its troops from the West Bank and Gaza, abandoning all settlements, and putting in a road, rail and pipeline link between the two territories.
And it would require Palestinians to stop screaming тАЬfrom River to SeaтАЭ which is never going to happen. ThatтАЩs the problem. Israel is rational. They have proven their ability to work with the Palestinian people and anyone else who will work with them. Some Palestinian groups will never accept Israel and reinforce this among their followers. ThatтАЩs what has to end. That. Until it does a two- state solution will never happen.
It's not one-sided, though. Much of the religious right in Israel wants all Palestinians expelled. Some of the fringe talk about Nile to Euphrates in those terms.
I donтАЩt doubt there are some who feel that way but thatтАЩs a handful not the official position of the government. Nor are even the majority of Israelis religious. The hatred of the majority of Palestinians for the Jews is overwhelming and sad. If they could just stop indoctrinating the next generation things could change.
I cannot, with a brief search, find any data about how many also want all Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank and Gaza. I doubt the position is as marginal as you think.
Sure, you can find a survey. IтАЩm just looking at actions. How Israelis have actually lived along side other non-Jews. And what their governmentтАЩs position has been consistently. It literally is not that hard to believe unless you donтАЩt want to consider history and actions. But thanks for the convo.
Keep in mind that the evidence is clear that Israel began a deliberate program of ethnic cleansing in 1948. See Ilan Pape's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" for a good overview if this. They didn't need to expel all Palestinians, of course--but they calculated they didn't want more than 20 percent Arabs in Israel to be a truly "Jewish State".
The current Iaraelis aren't guilty for their parents and grandparents sins, of course...but if they're sincere about undoing those crimes, they could start by recognizing the right of return for those families expelled in the Nakba. They could also stop building settlement that encroach on land that theoretically would be part of a "two State" deal--and stop eliciting Arans from their homes in East Jerusalem.
I will keep no such thing in mind because that is simply not true. There was no тАЬdeliberate program of ethnic cleansing.тАЭ Recommending a book with that title and reference to the тАЬNakbaтАЭ tells me all I need to know about your point of view. But I appreciate the civility.
How predictable. Set us up with some equivalence then move in for the kill shot.
To see only the evil that Hamas did without seeing anything wrong with what Israel has done for decades, or worse, to justify it, as many in the West do, is basically saying Israeli lives matter more than Palestinian ones.
We have two ethnic groups who have been fighting over the same piece of land since 1948. This is not a question of civilization versus barbarity. Both sides have committed plenty of war crimes over the years. Israel has been more strategic about theirs, while too many Palestinians have chosen to act in ways that are stupid, short-sighted, and do their cause no good.
To ask what might have pushed someone to commit a particular atrocity does not mean one is excusing the atrocity. But consider that many in Israel have wanted to clear out Gaza entirely for a while, and now they have a reason to.
https://www.vox.com/world-politics/23933707/israel-palestine-hamas-gaza-nakba-displacement-refugees-history
I don't buy into these conspiracy theories myself, but there's definitely a narrative among Muslims that the Israelis are lying about the worst atrocities, and those photos and videos are faked. Or that Netanyahu and Hamas were working together. (They have in the past.) I can't read anyone's mind, but I suspect at least some of the people tearing down hostage posters think they are combating fake news.
When in the past did Israel work with Hamas?
It's common knowledge. This, from the Times of Israel:
https://www.timesofisrael.com/for-years-netanyahu-propped-up-hamas-now-its-blown-up-in-our-faces/
Reread everything you just wrote and ask yourself if a person inclined to support Israel has just had his opinion strengthened?
Maybe? Honestly, at this point only those who don't know much about any of it are still persuadable. The two sides are even living in parallel information worlds, as Rod wrote about in an earlier piece.
If you only get your news from TikTok you're seeing an overwhelmingly pro-Palestine view. The mainstream media in the West, meanwhile, is very pro-Israel. Meanwhile lot of people worldwide just rely on WhatsApp and Telegram forwards. There are barely even any shared facts and there's not enough mutual trust to create any. I imagine this is what it was like in the medieval era, where literacy was low and everyone got their news from the town crier and people they knew.
My take would be that, without theological justification otherwise, it's blindingly obvious that the Palestinians are in the right.
However (and it's a big "However"), the Palestinians have picked a particularly nasty ideological vehicle for their just aspirations. Obviously, I disapprove of Islam on a theological level, but, leaving that aside, I think the jury is out on the degree to which Islam can be tolerant, and function on a level playing field in a multireligious society. I hope it can, because I would prefer to see it as just a false religion, like Mormonism, which Christians should argue against, but beside which they can live safely. However, that is somewhat academic, as, in the world today, it is indisputable that Islam is more violent and intolerant than Christianity (unless one considers, say, the USA to have religious motivations for its foreign policy, which is arguable but far from certain). In addition, a sizable minority of Palestinians have latched onto an unusually nasty interpretation of Islam, represented by Hamas.
Even leaving aside their ideology, the recent attacks were largely sadistic. They weren't even, for example, random bombing of a residential area to demoralise the population, in that some of those involved seem to have truly bestial and sexually perverted motives.
After that, I sympathise with the Israeli public to want to take bloody vengeance. However, that does not mean that US and European governments should encourage that. The USA has leverage, as it provides a huge amount of aid to Israel.
Leaving aside the moral issues, in terms of what is to be done, I find it difficult to be other than deeply pessimistic. I think one side or the other, probably the Palestinians, is going to end up getting killed or expelled. Another possibility is a nuclear war, perhaps between Israel and Iran, or perhaps the Samson Option by Israel.
If I try to think of optimistic scenarios, obviously mass (even much less than 100%) conversion of both sides to Christianity would resolve the problem overnight. It's actually quite bizarre how spiritual good coincides with geopolitical and humanitarian benefit in this particular case.
The one-state option, without a massive moral realignment, which is unlikely without religious conversion, looks like a non-starter. If I could dream, I'd want a holy Holy Land, a sort of spiritual homeland for the soul, as a pilgrimage destination, and world centre for religious studies and spiritual arts, showcasing the best of the three religious traditions, and showing that devout religion can be tolerant and humane.
I think the two-state option would still be workable, but would require Israel withdrawing all its troops from the West Bank and Gaza, abandoning all settlements, and putting in a road, rail and pipeline link between the two territories.
And it would require Palestinians to stop screaming тАЬfrom River to SeaтАЭ which is never going to happen. ThatтАЩs the problem. Israel is rational. They have proven their ability to work with the Palestinian people and anyone else who will work with them. Some Palestinian groups will never accept Israel and reinforce this among their followers. ThatтАЩs what has to end. That. Until it does a two- state solution will never happen.
It's not one-sided, though. Much of the religious right in Israel wants all Palestinians expelled. Some of the fringe talk about Nile to Euphrates in those terms.
I donтАЩt doubt there are some who feel that way but thatтАЩs a handful not the official position of the government. Nor are even the majority of Israelis religious. The hatred of the majority of Palestinians for the Jews is overwhelming and sad. If they could just stop indoctrinating the next generation things could change.
According to Reuters, almost half of Israeli Jews want all Israeli Arabs (i.e. Palestinian citizens of Israel) expelled, and 79% consider that Jews should be consistently privileged over Arabs. https://www.reuters.com/article/us-israel-palestinians-survey-idUSKCN0WA1HI
I cannot, with a brief search, find any data about how many also want all Palestinians to be expelled from the West Bank and Gaza. I doubt the position is as marginal as you think.
Sure, you can find a survey. IтАЩm just looking at actions. How Israelis have actually lived along side other non-Jews. And what their governmentтАЩs position has been consistently. It literally is not that hard to believe unless you donтАЩt want to consider history and actions. But thanks for the convo.
Keep in mind that the evidence is clear that Israel began a deliberate program of ethnic cleansing in 1948. See Ilan Pape's "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine" for a good overview if this. They didn't need to expel all Palestinians, of course--but they calculated they didn't want more than 20 percent Arabs in Israel to be a truly "Jewish State".
The current Iaraelis aren't guilty for their parents and grandparents sins, of course...but if they're sincere about undoing those crimes, they could start by recognizing the right of return for those families expelled in the Nakba. They could also stop building settlement that encroach on land that theoretically would be part of a "two State" deal--and stop eliciting Arans from their homes in East Jerusalem.
I will keep no such thing in mind because that is simply not true. There was no тАЬdeliberate program of ethnic cleansing.тАЭ Recommending a book with that title and reference to the тАЬNakbaтАЭ tells me all I need to know about your point of view. But I appreciate the civility.
Sadly, this is the reason that people are so divided about this issue. How can we discuss it rationally if we don't consider the evidence?
If you have any recommendations that addresses the evidence that Ilan Pappe and other writers have presented, I am fully willing to consider it.
We cannot advance if we refuse to look at the evidence presented from multiple points of view.