A few years ago at my university I was on the committee that invited Episcopal Bishop Spong (John Shelby Spong) (1931-2021) to visit and give a few talks. He was a hyper-liberal thinker who rejected Virgin Birth, bodily resurrection of Jesus, and made no secret of his belief that St. Paul was a homosexual. Some of you may remember him - he was a prolific author, quite famous at the time, and his visit took place soon after “Why Christianity Must Change or Die” (1999), his latest book was published.
In his general lecture he enjoyed taking potshots at various points in the Bible that have traditionally stretched the readers’ credulity, for example the passage in Exodus 33:23 in which Moses asks to see God, and God shows him his backside. At the banquet I was seated next to him, and we got into a conversation. But then I made a mistake in saying that I believed in miracles. I couldn’t believe it - he instantly became enraged (not at me, but at the idea), it was like going from 0 to 60 in about 3 seconds. You should’ve been there. To me he looked ridiculous but he was an important guest so we had to be nice to him. Plus he was in his 70s, and I was raised to treat older people with respect.
I'd bet there are more than a few ex-Episcopalians reading this list, and probably all of us remember Bishop Spong. He sure did his part to help cripple the Episcopal church. And push people like me out. Interesting anecdote. Now he knows fully, I suppose. May God have mercy on him and all those of like mind.
I remember him too. That he was a bishop of a Christian church with his beliefs struck me as discordant as if a dedicated Communist became a member of the board of directors of JC Morgan Chase.
He wasn't the first in the Episcopal church. Before my time,there was Bishop James Pike. He was very heretical, going in the direction that Spong went, denying the Virgin Birth for starters, and then got seriously into woo (this book might be interesting https://www.amazon.com/Haunting-Bishop-Pike-Christian-Other/dp/0842313400) and had a tragic end of life, lost in an Israeli desert. I suppose one can make too much of circumstances, but such endings kind of look like a warning of what paths not to follow.
Spong was the Bishop of Newark for a few years. He presided over a progressive hollowing out of the Church which has largely become a social club for ex Catholics who are divorced and or LGBTQ. I also started thinking about Pike and his relationship with Philip Dick
You might find this article-https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/philip-k-dick-dead-sea-scrolls .
I remember Spong's books from when I worked at a Barnes and Noble for a few years. I never considered it a good sign when any religious figure always had themselves grinning on the covers of their own book, yet there he was in his dog-collar, grinning away as book after booked mocked the very faith in which he was clergy. My own college advisor was a very liberal Episcopal bishop, but never a mocker - never asked my advisor their opinion on Spong, but I doubt it was high - my advisor didn't suffer fools.
I'd like to say he was a rarity, but my wife's English grandmother was a lay reader in her little parish in northern Wales, and for years had to suffer from a local vicar who was himself an atheist (doubtless seminary made him that way). To him the post was just a government job. But again, he did not disrespect the faith from the pulpit - he would read from books of others' sermons.
Or get angry, but that isn't good for the soul. What happened to the TEC is a tragedy - I was baptized there as an adult, back in a time when it was still possible to be a small-o-orthodox 'mere' Christian and worship there. Maybe in a few places that's still possible, not where I live though.
I think there's something to be said for taking a symptomological approach to people's ideas, asking why *this* specific person would be inclined to hold *this* given belief. Some people deserve to have their ideas taken seriously as ideas. And others, well, their ideas should just be read as their expression of their feelings by other means.
I was an Episcopalian before becoming Catholic. My dad was an Episcopal priest in the same diocese that Spong came from. We used to call him Bishop Sponge because I guess, he soaked up all the trendy modernisms. After becoming Catholic, I was explaining to our pastor about Spong & said he didn’t believe in the Virgin Birth or the literal Resurrection. Father got a puzzled look. “Well why did he become a priest and bishop if he doesn’t believe it? He should be selling insurance or something.” Yeah.
The most charitable assumption is folks like that lost their faith in seminary or bit by bit as new priests, but liked the smells and bells and hymns and trappings of the church, so stayed. Career changes can be tough. Former priest on a resume back in those days might have been seen as something shameful.
Plus I think there always was a modernist movement within Anglicanism in general, going back to the 20s at least, and in the early 60s there was J Robinsons 'Honest to God' and Paul Tillich's various works. And some of them thought they were saving the church, because 'Modern Man cannot believe in miracles', as those folks used to write in the 60s.
Oh, I just wrote about Father Neuhaus calling him bishop Sponge.
“In religion, for example, a hypothetical Episcopalian bishop named Sponge, who has soaked up all the politically correct attitudes toward traditional values…”
“Bishop Spong—sometimes called Bishop Sponge for his wondrous capacity for cultural assimilation…”
I see that calling him “Bishop Sponge” was very common.
Spong came from what he termed an "extremely fundamentalist" background, against which he reacted. Spong's brother, also an Episcopal priest, was a liberal, too:
Father Neuhaus called Bishop Spong - Bishop Sponge.
“In religion, for example, a hypothetical Episcopalian bishop named Sponge, who has soaked up all the politically correct attitudes toward traditional values…”
“Bishop Spong—sometimes called Bishop Sponge for his wondrous capacity for cultural assimilation…”
I just finished reading "Living in Wonder" last night and am now re-reading it to save passages I want to keep revisiting. Your writing, Rod, is a gift to me. Blessed Nativity to you and Matt!
Merry Christmas, friend. Thank you for this.
That's a lovely story. It's comforting to know saints can be a little testy!
"Don't worry, he's like that with everybody."
Beautiful! A joyous Christmas to you, Brother.
A very, Merry Christmas to you. Thank you for the lovely story.
Christos Razdajetsja!
Merry Christmas, Rod!
Dang Rod. You made me cry at 7:20 AM Christmas Eve Morning in Richmond Va.
You too, huh?
Re: Virgin birth
A few years ago at my university I was on the committee that invited Episcopal Bishop Spong (John Shelby Spong) (1931-2021) to visit and give a few talks. He was a hyper-liberal thinker who rejected Virgin Birth, bodily resurrection of Jesus, and made no secret of his belief that St. Paul was a homosexual. Some of you may remember him - he was a prolific author, quite famous at the time, and his visit took place soon after “Why Christianity Must Change or Die” (1999), his latest book was published.
In his general lecture he enjoyed taking potshots at various points in the Bible that have traditionally stretched the readers’ credulity, for example the passage in Exodus 33:23 in which Moses asks to see God, and God shows him his backside. At the banquet I was seated next to him, and we got into a conversation. But then I made a mistake in saying that I believed in miracles. I couldn’t believe it - he instantly became enraged (not at me, but at the idea), it was like going from 0 to 60 in about 3 seconds. You should’ve been there. To me he looked ridiculous but he was an important guest so we had to be nice to him. Plus he was in his 70s, and I was raised to treat older people with respect.
Merry Christmas everyone!
Merry Christmas!
I'd bet there are more than a few ex-Episcopalians reading this list, and probably all of us remember Bishop Spong. He sure did his part to help cripple the Episcopal church. And push people like me out. Interesting anecdote. Now he knows fully, I suppose. May God have mercy on him and all those of like mind.
I remember him too. That he was a bishop of a Christian church with his beliefs struck me as discordant as if a dedicated Communist became a member of the board of directors of JC Morgan Chase.
He wasn't the first in the Episcopal church. Before my time,there was Bishop James Pike. He was very heretical, going in the direction that Spong went, denying the Virgin Birth for starters, and then got seriously into woo (this book might be interesting https://www.amazon.com/Haunting-Bishop-Pike-Christian-Other/dp/0842313400) and had a tragic end of life, lost in an Israeli desert. I suppose one can make too much of circumstances, but such endings kind of look like a warning of what paths not to follow.
Read more here:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Pike
And before Pike there was William Montgomery Brown:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Brown
Spong was the Bishop of Newark for a few years. He presided over a progressive hollowing out of the Church which has largely become a social club for ex Catholics who are divorced and or LGBTQ. I also started thinking about Pike and his relationship with Philip Dick
You might find this article-https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/arts-letters/articles/philip-k-dick-dead-sea-scrolls .
I remember Spong's books from when I worked at a Barnes and Noble for a few years. I never considered it a good sign when any religious figure always had themselves grinning on the covers of their own book, yet there he was in his dog-collar, grinning away as book after booked mocked the very faith in which he was clergy. My own college advisor was a very liberal Episcopal bishop, but never a mocker - never asked my advisor their opinion on Spong, but I doubt it was high - my advisor didn't suffer fools.
I'd like to say he was a rarity, but my wife's English grandmother was a lay reader in her little parish in northern Wales, and for years had to suffer from a local vicar who was himself an atheist (doubtless seminary made him that way). To him the post was just a government job. But again, he did not disrespect the faith from the pulpit - he would read from books of others' sermons.
I always think of this from Yes, Prime Minister, when I read about atheist clergy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2dNCw0hPLs
It's the sort of bit one laughs at. Because the alternative is weeping.
Or get angry, but that isn't good for the soul. What happened to the TEC is a tragedy - I was baptized there as an adult, back in a time when it was still possible to be a small-o-orthodox 'mere' Christian and worship there. Maybe in a few places that's still possible, not where I live though.
I think there's something to be said for taking a symptomological approach to people's ideas, asking why *this* specific person would be inclined to hold *this* given belief. Some people deserve to have their ideas taken seriously as ideas. And others, well, their ideas should just be read as their expression of their feelings by other means.
Did he also deny the Resurrection?
Spong? Yes indeed.
Yikes 😬
As did this earlier Episcopal bishop:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Brown
I was an Episcopalian before becoming Catholic. My dad was an Episcopal priest in the same diocese that Spong came from. We used to call him Bishop Sponge because I guess, he soaked up all the trendy modernisms. After becoming Catholic, I was explaining to our pastor about Spong & said he didn’t believe in the Virgin Birth or the literal Resurrection. Father got a puzzled look. “Well why did he become a priest and bishop if he doesn’t believe it? He should be selling insurance or something.” Yeah.
The most charitable assumption is folks like that lost their faith in seminary or bit by bit as new priests, but liked the smells and bells and hymns and trappings of the church, so stayed. Career changes can be tough. Former priest on a resume back in those days might have been seen as something shameful.
Plus I think there always was a modernist movement within Anglicanism in general, going back to the 20s at least, and in the early 60s there was J Robinsons 'Honest to God' and Paul Tillich's various works. And some of them thought they were saving the church, because 'Modern Man cannot believe in miracles', as those folks used to write in the 60s.
Brown begat Pike
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Montgomery_Brown
and Pike begat Spong:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Pike
They like the power.
Oh, I just wrote about Father Neuhaus calling him bishop Sponge.
“In religion, for example, a hypothetical Episcopalian bishop named Sponge, who has soaked up all the politically correct attitudes toward traditional values…”
“Bishop Spong—sometimes called Bishop Sponge for his wondrous capacity for cultural assimilation…”
I see that calling him “Bishop Sponge” was very common.
Spong came from what he termed an "extremely fundamentalist" background, against which he reacted. Spong's brother, also an Episcopal priest, was a liberal, too:
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/austin-tx/the-spong-8212890
Father Neuhaus called Bishop Spong - Bishop Sponge.
“In religion, for example, a hypothetical Episcopalian bishop named Sponge, who has soaked up all the politically correct attitudes toward traditional values…”
“Bishop Spong—sometimes called Bishop Sponge for his wondrous capacity for cultural assimilation…”
Merry Christmas Rod and all you other distinguished commenters! I will raise a toast to you all!
Καλά Χριστούγεννα!
Merry Christmas Rod! May we all be pursued by Felice de Natalie.
Dreher: What? No negativity? You disappoint me, sir.
Merry Christmas.
I just finished reading "Living in Wonder" last night and am now re-reading it to save passages I want to keep revisiting. Your writing, Rod, is a gift to me. Blessed Nativity to you and Matt!
Buon Natale, Rod!
And to all a Merry Christmas!
Christ is Born! Glorify Him!
Beautiful, just beautiful!
Merry Christmas to you Rod and to all my fellow posters and non-posters on this list.